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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Bill Cummings » Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:42 pm

Dan,
I have two thermal snoopers from Alan Fisher.
The first one was too quiet and eventually started working intermittently do to a power contact coming loose from the circuit board.
I had Alan search through is supply and he sent me another snooper that was louder. I still have it hooked to my helmet.
A few months back I thought I was going nuts ( :crazy: as many have thought :crazy: ) because one night I kept hearing a beeping noise that my wife couldn't hear.
As it turned out she needed and got hearing aids.
I was on my hands and knees tying to creep up on the beeping noise and finally found my original snooper after years of sitting idle started working in the bottom of an electrical parts ZipLock bag. I shut it off and just now pulled it out of the parts bag.
If you want the original one (not in good working order) for free including free shipping contact me with a Personal Message (PM) with an address to send it to.
Perhaps you can reverse engineer the snooper and come up with something more productive than something that made me think I was going nuts.
EDIT----
I just now remembered a pilot that is selling all his stuff and getting out of hang gliding. He may still have a working snooper that he might sell or give away. Let me know.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:34 pm

Wow, Dan, seek and ye shall find on US Hawks! :clap: :lol:

Bill, a few years ago Alan told me he didn't have any Thermal Snoopers left so I sent him my last spare to play with.
Looks like we're both down to one apiece.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Bill Cummings » Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:34 pm

I got all mixed up between my two mini vario's and my thermal snooper.
I've been in contact (PM) with Dan and still have a lead on a snooper that my friend has that is getting out of HG.
So sorry folks for some false hope and my befuddlement.
All is not lost yet (Just my brain).
I'll track down the snooper from my retired pilot friend that is unloading his gear.
Dan may end up with that snooper.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Harry » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:14 pm

I found this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090731132 ... ooper2.htm

An interesting read and I can build one just from the descriptions alone.
However, I question the value of a single temperature sensor. The TS may sniff out the temperature gradient between the thermal and surrounding air, but is it of benefit to the pilot over using a vario? I would not know as I have never tried one.

Would not having two sensors tied into a circuit, one sensor on each wingtip, work better to inform the pilot which direction to turn to find the thermal? The wingtip closer to the thermal will sense it before the further wingtip, would it not?

I may build one and try it out as I am curious. I would use thermistors as they are quite sensitive and react quickly to temperature change. My indicator would be a simple meter pointing left or right for the direction to turn. Centered would mean nothing detected. The thermistors could be a matched pair and installed into a balanced bridge circuit calibrated for zero when both are at the same temperature. I believe that as one wing tip is closer to the thermal, it will detect warmer air to throw the circuit out of balance indicating the direction to turn. When leaving the thermal, each wingtip thermistor will read the same temperature and zero out the indicator. I can build one to test on the ground first by setting up a circuit on poles with ribbons as visual indicators. When a thermal comes rolling across my property, I should be able to compare the meter to the ribbons being moved by the thermals.

If a moth can find a mate miles away by following a scant trail detected by it's two antenna, I would bet the sensors on the wingtips of my glider could do the same to find that thermal. What I am looking for now is a table of data to show what the delta T is for a thermal and the surrounding air.

Maybe Rick has thoughts on this.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:35 am

Image
I refer you back to my research in "Explorations with the Thermal Snooper", published in the Soaring Society of America's Soaring Magazine, August 1987 and reproduced at this link.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090612122602/http://www.cometclones.com/illusion.htm

It answers a lot of your questions. Here are a few excerpts:
The TS may sniff out the temperature gradient between the thermal and surrounding air, but is it of benefit to the pilot over using a vario?

     I no longer regarded it as an instrument separate from my vario. Instead, the vario was now a complete instrument operating on principles of temperature and pressure - as seemed perfectly logical. Indeed, what seemed illogical was the fact that the soaring community had relied for generations on an incomplete device!
Would not having two sensors tied into a circuit, one sensor on each wingtip, work better to inform the pilot which direction to turn to find the thermal?

    How would a temperature-sensitive instrument be used in soaring? This question has intrigued several researchers. The first significant experiments were made in the 1960s with sailplanes. A new development in solid-state electronics was the "thermistor," a device that varied electrical resistance with minute changes in temperature. By mounting a thermistor on each wingtip, the researchers reasoned, it would be a simple matter to turn in the direction of the warmer thermistor to locate a thermal. Unfortunately, in practice this was not effective.
    There were several problems. The speed of the sailplane and the extended response time of the early thermistors conspired to provide essentially useless data. The distance between wingtips did not seem to be great enough to generate a reliable temperature difference. And sinking into warmer air or rising into cooler air wrought havoc with all attempts of measurement.
    But even if these problems had been overcome, the basic premise dictated that the thermal have a relatively laminar temperature gradient from periphery to core. If this is not the case - if, for instance, thermals shed pockets of warm air which separate beyond wingspan distances as they rise - then the concept of thermal location using wingtip sensors is flawed.


Image

    Contemporary theory envisions a rapidly rising bubble of warm air pushing its way through the relatively stable air in its path. As it passes, cooler air rushes around and below to fill in the area it has vacated. This causes sink around the thermal.
    This theory was developed by observation from sailplanes. But a Thermal Snooper mounted on a hang glider traveling 20 mph suggests a slightly different picture - one that may revolutionize soaring techniques.
    Imagine discrete segments of warm air from the thermal's outer layer being constantly torn away and set spinning by friction with the cooler air through which the thermal is rising. The thermal will be completely surrounded by these swirling segments of warm air and they will continue to move outward as they cool. These are what the Snooper senses. I have termed this new vision of a thermal the "sloughing thermal."


Image

MASTERING THE SLOUGHING THERMAL
    The Thermal Snooper allows the pilot to recognize the presence of a thermal from far outside the point where his vario would register anything. First, the warm eddies are sensed (1) and the Thermal Snooper begins to "beep" while the vario remains silent. Next (2) the vario may indicate sink but the Snooper will continue beeping. Entering the ascending outer layer of the thermal (3), the vario will register lift as the Snooper continues to beep. Finally (4) when the thermal is cored, the vario registers lift but the Snooper is silent because the temperature of the core is constant.
-------------
I was talking about big thermals. (Guess what those swirly things do to paragliders. :shock: )

If you go back to my reply to the first danstrider post, you will realize that using today's GPS technology in concert with altimiter, variometer and Snooper data can be used to create a virtual wing of any span (perpendicular to the actual span) along the path traveled - and the second thermistor becomes unnecessary. This eliminates the poor-resolution problems of the past where wingspan tip sensors gave indefinite results due to insufficient separation. Perhaps the more-sensitive thermistors of today could be used to solve the speed problem and allow the faster sailplanes to use Snooper technology effectively.

One good thing is you are in the West. Dry air works best. Big thermal venues work best. A lot of pilots in the East were dissatisfied with the Thermal Snooper. I'm certain it has something to do with dew point and this may be overcome with today's electronics.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Harry » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:18 am

RickMasters wrote:One good thing is you are in the West. Dry air works best. Big thermal venues work best. A lot of pilots in the East were dissatisfied with the Thermal Snooper. I'm certain it has something to do with dew point and this may be overcome with today's electronics.


I have been wondering about the dew point as well. I lean towards wing tip sensors as I know the two can be integrated into one instrument. The smaller thermals can be quite challenging. Taking the TS a step further, I would mount one on each wingtip and average the combined data and if there is a significant difference, then use that to help the pilot decide which direction to turn. It would be an interesting experiment for the smaller thermals.

Makes me wonder if birds also sniff the air and sense the eddies with feathers to find their lift.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:54 pm

I lean towards wing tip sensors

As soon as a thermal starts shedding swirling parcels of air, you will detect nothing but "false positives" if you are envisioning the Snooper output as somehow indicating the shape of that thermal. What the Snooper output is telling you will be that there is a thermal nearby and that you should initiate a search pattern. Because of this, there is no advantage to wingtip sensors.

Knowing whether to turn right or left is not as important as knowing
A) if you are in a rising (or descending) and swirling parcel of air shed by an ascending thermal (near the thermal: Snooper noisy, vario indicating some lift) or
B) within the thermal itself (Snooper quiet, vario screaming).

You may be thinking in terms of rate of change in pressure (barometric variometer). Thinking along those lines leads to rationalizing that a differential between wingtip sensors is presenting information when it is simply noise.

A Thermal Snooper, however, is providing a rate of change in temperature (temperature variometer) along a line (flight path). This should not be confused with a thermometer or change-in-temperature instrument (temperature "altimeter"). Such confusion might lead one to think placing very sensitive thermometers on each wingtip might provide useful information when 30 or 40 feet of separation is insufficient.

What is the minimum separation needed to generate information in an ideal environment, rather than be overwhelmed with noise? Would simple wingtip temperature sensors (thermometers) work on a 4-foot span model? If not, why then assume they would work on a 30-foot span? I contend the minimum useful distance of separation for any soaring aircraft will be a function of its turning radius and likely much more than its wingspan. But if you then add turbulence generated by the thermal, including temperature turbulence generated by swirling parcels of warm air sloughed from the thermal and mixed with swirling parcels of cooler air from the boundary, it is likely you will end up with nothing useful.

Now let's analyze the preconception that wingtip rate-of-change temperature sensors (Snoopers, not thermometers) are a practical approach to determining the location of a thermal. These wingtip sensors are imagined to provide a differential over a short and set distance perpendicular to the flight path. Furthermore, they are assumed to provide more useful information than a single central sensor located only 15 feet between them.

Compare this to a single sensor. At 24 mph you will be travelling slightly more than 35 fps, about a wingspan. If you take a measurement, then count one second and take another, the result is the same snapshot rotated horizontally by 90 degrees (and skewed by one second whereas the wingtip sensor measurement would be simultaneous). The preconception would suggest that the single central sensor has less value in making a turning judgement than wingspan sensors. The preconception also suggests the value of a temperature variometer is in providing information as to turn right or left.

But this is not what a rate-of-change-in-temperature instrument does. A pilot is much more likely to encounter parcels of tumbling air near thermals rather than enter a thermal by blind luck. The Thermal Snooper tells you a thermal is nearby. That is its purpose. (Unless you actually approach the thermal core by blind luck, all an ideal wingtip sensor equipped instrument could possibly do is tell you if the parcel is rotating clockwise or counterclockwise along your flight path axis - which is irrelevant.) You execute a search pattern as illustrated in my last post. You have a 50/50 chance of turning in the correct direction. If the thermal is there, you will find it with your altitude variometer and determine you have centered the core when the temperature rate-of-change variometer (Thermal Snooper) falls silent.

People who choose to disregard the Sloughing Thermal Hypothesis, choosing the classical thermal model instead, are not as proficient in using the Thermal Snooper because they keep thinking they are encountering little thermals.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:38 pm

Makes me wonder if birds...

It may be undiscovered. Their reptilian relatives do it.
----------------
Snakes possess a unique sensory system for detecting infrared radiation, enabling them to generate a ‘thermal image’ of predators or prey. Infrared signals are initially received by the pit organ, a highly specialized facial structure that is innervated by nerve fibers of the somatosensory system. How this organ detects and transduces infrared signals into nerve impulses is not known.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2855400/

Last edited by Rick Masters on Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby danstrider » Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:51 pm

Great discussions guys.

The only good reference I know for the size of an aircraft relative to a thermal is a takeoff by NASA's Helios aircraft in 2001. Just after takeoff, it flew through a thermal on the runway and you can witness the wing bowing with anhedral as it flies through. There is great video footage of it here: https://youtu.be/1NCOPLEJOl0?t=1m44s Note that the Helios had a 249 ft wingspan!

Now I can't speak directly to putting sensors on each wing tip, be that on a 4m or 10m wing. However, looking at raw netto variometer data and working to clean up the math to get as clean a vario signal as possible, the raw data at 20 Hz is still quite noisy. I oversample and filter down to 4 Hz to improve the signal quality presented audibly. Running two sensors differentially on each wing tip will likely experience the same type of noise, so tuning filters will be an important task to make a useful instrument, probably moreso than the actual temperature measurement itself. Not saying it won't work, just working through an expected challenge.

I can't speak for the snooper yet, but I can speak to turn direction decision for autonomous soaring. Whenever I talked with manned sailplane pilots about auto-soaring, one of the first questions they asked was how to determine which direction to turn. At first, this seemed like an important decision. However, since using GPS mapping with the vario data pinpointed the thermal center, it was relatively unimportant which direction to turn because the map told how to get back to the core. Sure, picking correctly helped core quicker and keep from losing some altitude. Overall, the decision of which direction to turn was independent of the act of centering on the core. I bring this up to point out the potential advantage of a mapping instrument for manned application.

Also worth noting, the turn direction decision starts at a 50/50 chance. Anything to improve chances over 50% is a win. Most manned sailplane pilots tell me it's something they feel in the seat of their pants to determine the turn direction. I looked at the autopilot's commanded aileron deflection from neutral. If the ailerons held left roll to hold the wings level at the moment of deciding to start soaring, I assumed the thermal was to the left, and vice versa. Based on playing back data, this technique was successful about 85% of the twenty or so case studies I ran.

Albatross are known to have an extra appendage on their upper beak that is assumed to help provide airspeed control, perhaps related to dynamic soaring. See information and pictures top of page 2: http://www.aero.psu.edu/avia/pubs/QuiLan13.pdf

Rick, I finished formatting and cleaning up the Alan Fisher article. I also formatted your "experiences" article to preserve it in case the archived version ever goes away. Do you have any issues if I post them here?

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Re: Thermal Snooper Question for Rick M.

Postby Harry » Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:09 pm

Dan, you may be right, the filtering would be the greatest challenge. I have a natural tendency to want to thermal to left over right in most cases anyway.

I'll build a prototype thermal sniffer using a thermistor and see how close I can get to the original design. Who knows, I may be able to improve it over time and this will teach me more about locating thermals.
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