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Waivers

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:03 am

Please post examples of waivers (actual or proposed) to this topic. Thanks.

Joe Faust posted an excellent idea about developing good waivers to protect land owners where we might fly. Here's his post (from another topic):

JoeF wrote:Perhaps soon have an open non-org "Waiver" document. Have it be very formal, neat appearing, bordered as a certificate and room for several witness signatures. A pilot signs; witnesses sign. Presto, one has a Waiver to show property owners. "I sign away all powers to sue anyone, any corporation, any institution, any estate, any government, ...) because of my hang gliding actions. I will make good any damage I might do to others and their properties (no instance in my life yet has resulted in injuring others or others' properties, as I practice my hang gliding with the utmost care to takeoff and land so injury or damages do not occur to others or their properties.) Any and all injuries that I inflict on myself because of my hang gliding are fully and only my responsibility. Occasionally an out landing to an unplanned spot occurs; I will gently exit from the unplanned area while exercising high respect for plants, animals, gating, fencing, etc. When in doubt about something, I will consult with the area's manager and respect the manager's requirements regarding my extraction; I will offer to pay involved extraction costs in a fitting manner." Etc. A lawyer could dance here to help. Witnesses could have titles next to their names or not. Have the document notarized; carry the original when negotiating; have high-quality copies to leave with property owners; give copy of driver's license showing signature; give URL of WHGA and US Hawks. Tell the world that one has given up the ability to hold property owners liable for one's injuries upon temporary use of a property. And state that one is fully willing to cover any damages to people or property that might occur because of one's hang gliding activity.
Then plan flights conservatively and avoid damaging anyone or anyone's property.
Use the waiver to negotiate with some property owners for temporary use of their properties. Have copies of state papers that also echo release of property owners from liabilities when not commercially operating their property for recreational use. Perhaps forget "organized" assemblies of hang gliders while simply flying with high communications with fellow pilots for niche pleasures (hundreds of ways without organized meets). Perhaps get very distributed where there are not "sites" and not "LZs" while evolving into responsible "most anywhere" capability while respecting airspace rules and traffic. Coming eHG takeoffs will be opening millions of launch points. A universal formal waiver (available is the use of the imprint of WHGA, if one wishes such on his or her waiver document.

Let's start collecting ideas for Waivers in this topic so we can get a sense of what they might look like. Please post any that you've seen or used. Thanks!
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Re: Waivers

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:33 pm

On the Oz Forum:

USHPA BOD allows competition class paragliders in US competitions wrote:Unlike all (almost all?) the other national federations

On Thursday the USHPA BOD met on a conference call to discuss how to respond to John Aldridge's statement:

Organisers of FAI Category 2 events are also strongly advised to consider whether Competition Class paragliders should be permitted to compete in events with racing tasks for the period of the suspension.

This is their response:

Following two fatalities and a number of reserve deployments at the FAI World Paragliding Championships in Piedrahita, Spain last week, the CIVL Bureau voted to ban competition-class paragliders from Category 1 sanctioned events. The CIVL ban is effective immediately. At the same time, CIVL issued a recommendation (see below) to its member national associations to consider whether to extend the ban to Category 2 events. USHPA has followed the CIVL recommendation and considered whether to extend the ban to Category 2 events. In its consideration, USHPA consulted with meet organizers, competition pilots and other experts.

After reviewing the circumstances leading up to CIVL's actions, USHPA has determined that, while the pattern of accidents at CIVL Category 1 events that apparently lead CIVL to ban competition class paragliders at those events should not be ignored, there is no evidence to indicate that the accident rate for competition class paragliders in USHPA sanctioned events is materially higher than the rate of accidents for serial class and other certified wings. USHPA will continue to allow competition class paragliders to compete in USHPA sanctioned Category 2 events. However, USHPA will require all pilots intending to fly in these events to participate in a mandatory special safety seminar at each sanctioned competition prior to the start of the event. These seminars are intended to fully disclose what is known about the inherent risks involved in flying competition class paragliders and discuss ways pilots can mitigate these risks. Pilots flying competition class paragliders will be required to have minimum levels of experience. All pilots participating in these competitions will be required to agree to the USHPA release, waiver and assumption of risk agreement on video and represent that they have the required piloting skills and understand these risks.

Joe Faust added a clever post:

Joe Faust wrote:Just to focus:
Waiver.
Sign waiver.
Now submit video of self stating acceptance of Waiver.

Hmmmm… ??
Next: Applique on canopy: I am a waiver signer.
After that: Chest tattoo: I signed a waiver.
Then: Microchip embedded into skull: "I am a waiver signer."

Help write an international waiver:
http://tinyurl.com/WaiverFormation

Thanks Joe!!

:srofl:
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Re: Waivers

Postby SamKellner » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:11 pm

bobk wrote:]

Thanks Joe!! :srofl:[/quote]

That's #5 :wave: Right on, Joe! "String controle". Yeah!

However, one of our chapter members is organizing the PG comp in
Hearne, Tx. in a couple of weeks. Thanks USHPA for the decision.. I sure hope they have a successful meet with good conditions and fly safe.. :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:

And another chapter member is organizing the Big Spring, Tx. hang gliding comp for the 10th ? year in a row. Worlds there in '07, wadn't it.
Longest task, etc, etc. :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: .

Oh, and another chapter member flew his 2-place sailplane for a record 596mi, July, 4th. Zapata to Amarillo, Tx. :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup:

Last but not least, another chapter member is at the worlds HG now!

Toot Toot,
Sam
Southwest Texas Hang Gliders
US Hawks Chapter #4
USHPA Chapter #285


P S. Bob, if you think I'm out of line, you can move this post to SWTHG forum. :srofl: :lol: :D :wave: :srofl: :D
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Re: Waivers

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:31 pm

SamKellner wrote:one of our chapter members is organizing the PG comp in Hearne, Tx. in a couple of weeks.
    :
another chapter member is organizing the Big Spring, Tx. hang gliding comp for the 10th ? year in a row.
    :
Oh, and another chapter member flew his 2-place sailplane for a record 596mi, July, 4th. Zapata to Amarillo, Tx.
    :
Last but not least, another chapter member is at the worlds HG now!

For a chapter with about 10 members (or less? :shock: ) you've sure picked a great crew!!!

A big Texas Yahoo!!! to all members of the Southwest Texas Hang Gliders!!

Way to go Sam!!      :thumbup: :clap: :wave: :thumbup: :wave: :clap:
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Re: Waivers

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:53 pm

I just got an email message from Joe Faust directing me to a waiver discussion on the Oz Forum:

Joe Faust wrote:Here is a starter for a waiver for earth use by a hang glider pilot:

Draft one of International Waiver:

"I, _____________, a member of the World Hang Gliding Association, waive all rights to sue in courts of law any person or corporation or their heirs or members for any injury or death to self that might occur as a result of my hang gliding activity. I take 100% responsibility for any injury or damage that might occur by my hang gliding actions to any property or persons. I take full responsibility to be informed of risks of equipment and takeoff and landing sites. No property owner or corporation owes me any information debt. I am an adult and my signing is witnessed by two persons below signing; and my signature is included below and recorded and processed by the undersigned notary.
Birthdate: _______________
Signing Date: ________
Place of signing: ____________________
Nation: ____________________________
Evidence of age and public identification: ___________
Witness One: _________________
Witness Two: _________________
Notary signature: ______________
Notary stamp: _________________"

Improvements or other drafts are invited.

Of course, Mark Forbes (USHPA's Treasurer) threw cold water on the idea. But he went on to say this:

Mark Forbes (highlighting added) wrote:Thus, the current decision. A safety meeting, at which all competitors will be briefed about what we know to date, and what the known and potential risks are as best we can evaluate them. A fresh waiver, acknowledging the risks both known and unknown, signed without coercion or duress. And finally, video documentation of it all, so that if questions come up in hindsight about who knew what, when, and what was said, we can "roll the tape" and see a convincing record of the state of knowledge at that moment in time.

Does anyone find it hypocritical that the USHPA Board would require competition pilots to be videotaped watching a presentation and/or signing a waiver ... while the USHPA Board has passed rules forbidding the videotaping or audio recording of their supposedly "open" Board of Directors meetings?

I just couldn't make it up any better than this!!      :srofl:
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Understanding this clause:

Postby JoeF » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:49 pm

In one waiver widely used in hang gliding, there is the following clause that challenges me:

EVEN IF CAUSED IN WHOLE OR IN PART BY THE ACTION, INACTION, OR NEGLIGENCE (WHETHER PASSIVE OR ACTIVE) OF THE RELEASED PARTIES, TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW.


Say a property owner comes over and hits me with his fist and breaks my jaw while I am on his property landing my hang glider. He was ACTIVE in hitting my jaw and breaking my jaw. Because I signed the waiver and gave up my legal rights to sue the guy that broke my jaw, then is the game over? I walk with broken jaw and have no recourse in law to sue for damages to my jaw? The out might be in the clause: "TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW." That is, I could sue and see what the court decides. But the same waiver had me sign that, if I sue, then I will pay for the jaw-breakers litigation costs; but maybe this matter is also under "TO THE FULLEST EXTENT ALLOWED BY LAW." And maybe the court would order in a way that counters the waiver.

I am not a lawyer or judge. But giving up the right to sue someone who can be active in causing me injury ....? Why would I give up such right just because I am landing or launching something called a hang glider?

Similarly, in the waiver where this waiving occurs, someone could shoot me out the sky with a rifled bullet, and the waiver had me give up the right to sue the shooter.

I'll just hang glide without signing such a waiver and leave it open for me to seek in law amends from persons or corporations or government entities that might actively decide to injure me while I am launching, landing or flying a hang glider ... I don't feel comfortable signing a waiver that has me a sitting duck for entities that are "ACTIVE" in hurting me or my property while I am launching or coming down from the sky or while I am in the sky. You want to actively hurt me and mine while I am hang gliding? Then be ready to be sued; and I don't want to pay your litigation fees!

I might be reading the Waiver incorrectly; but the clause I picked really bothers me.
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Re: Waivers

Postby JoeF » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:18 am

http://klawguru.com/2015/08/02/enforceability-of-liability-waivers-in-korea-the-yangpyeong-paragliding-case/

Enforceability of ‘Liability Waivers’ in Korea: The Yangpyeong Paragliding Case
====================================================================

Service provider retains some responsibility.
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Re: Waivers

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:20 am

Hi Joe,

Thanks for bumping this topic.

I've learned a lot about waivers in the past year or two.

It turns out that you can sign away your rights to sue for negligence but not - at least in California - for gross negligence. So if the property owner were to come up and intentionally break your jaw, I believe that would be far beyond plain old negligence.

But your point is a good one, and our sport has gotten so afraid of litigation, that we've allowed people to get away with things that they shouldn't. USHPA's "you can't even testify in a law suit or we'll kick you out" policy promotes irresponsible behavior by both pilots and instructors. Of course no one wants to be on the receiving end of a law suit. But that SHOULD be encouragement to act responsibly ... or at least try to stay within the bounds of plain old negligence.

Wingspan has had some good comments in the "Irresponsible" topic about this. The USHPA waiver that we sign (saying we won't sue other pilots) really rewards the worst kind of behavior in our sport. It makes the sport far more dangerous - for everyone - than it needs to be.
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Re: Waivers

Postby reluctantsparrow » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:02 pm

An idea that came to me recently concerning waivers. My apologies if this idea has been discussed already and dismissed for good reasons or maybe this idea is posted elsewhere? I am new here, still finding my way around the block.
The primary problem i see with the uspga waiver, the torrey waiver, and all waivers in general is....
They are too easy to sign.
I have watched this for years and done it myself.
showed up at Torrey one time and conditions were awesome, but i had to sign a waiver first....okay....take the wavier, go off into a corner, find all the places I need to initial and turn it in ASAP. Conditions were really good.
And off I go to set up my glider ASAP.
But do I really know what rights I have signed away? REALLY?
(and I tell myself, why sure i know what rights I have signed away)
but thats not really true.
If you asked me to pass a very thorough exam on all the legal mumbo jumbo I just put my john henry on I would maybe score around 50%.
I noticed someone mentioned waiver signings are being videotaped for proof of signing but that is still no indication a pilot, or student, or TANDEM PASSENGER has any real KNOWLEDGE of what they are signing.
Remember.
They are all excited and maybe they just want to cross hang gliding off the bucket list so they sign up for a tandem. They dont really intend to take up the sport anytime soon and yet off they go into the wild blue yonder if all goes well.
When all does not go well, they may sue, and win, or the spouse may sue, and win, or the parents may sue, and win, And you know what? I think they should win.
I think Our sport has been irresponsible simply allowing some people to sign a piece of paper without making sure those people know exactly what they are signing.
So the next question is: how can we possibly know they know what they are signing?
(this is actually so obvious your going to laugh, I hope)

if each and every person who signs a waiver has to take a very thorough exam on their knowledge of the rights they just signed away and pass this exam with a score of 100%. I would consider that pretty good proof they knew what rights they were signing away and the courts might agree with me.

Down side. that means a very excited person who wants to take a tandem flight NOW, and I mean RIGHT now! is going to have to take that waiver home and pretty much memorize it to pass the exam they have to take to get permission to fly tandem.
so they take the waiver home, and after they stay up all night to memorize that waiver to pass that exam with a 100% score the excitement might wear off just a wee bit.
Then, after a good night sleep they might wake up and decide they dont need to fly THAT bad.

And that might drastically cut into the tandems a bit but maybe thats a good thing.
A good thing for the rest of us who want to fly so bad we would memorize ten waivers to pass tens exams and risk life and limb every day of our lives and promise never to sue because we DO NEED to fly THAT BAD.

Perhaps a TEST or EXAM that asks a person to not just quote a waivers legal mumbo jumbo but to explain to us all in real terms what the Waiver actually says and means? perhaps such an Exam would effectively weed out the people who dont really need to fly that bad? Would a mandontary waiver exam make us more insurable?
Maybe it is the people who really did not need to fly THAT bad but then get hurt hang gliding that are the ones doing the suing? I dont know. I havent seen any numbers. I Just got this idea about waivers and decided to share.
If someone else has already shared this idea in some other thread...I apologize.....I am still learning my way around.......RS
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Re: Waivers

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:50 pm

reluctantsparrow wrote:The primary problem i see with the uspga waiver, the torrey waiver, and all waivers in general is....
They are too easy to sign.


Absolutely right. The idea about taking a test is super!!!

The best part about that idea isn't so much how it would affect the signer. The best part is that it might finally force the people who write those waivers to make them reasonable to read and reasonable to remember.

Great idea!!!      :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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