Great Analogy to U$HPA - Buried by hanggliding.org

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:12 am

Great Analogy to U$HPA - Buried by hanggliding.org

If you write something that rubs "someone" the wrong way on hanggliding.org it gets buried in what Jack calls "The Basement". It's not clear what the process is. Jack has claimed that "burial" results from some number of "Bury" button clicks in any topic. Many years ago, someone had the bright idea of running an experiment to find out how many "Bury" clicks actually bury a topic. Jack quickly shut that down with a stern warning (and a locked topic). It always made me wonder why "the number" was kept a secret. It makes me suspect that it's really not an actual number, but that Jack can bury whatever he wants whenever he wants.

Anyway, I found this topic started by "hnglidr" back on February 7th, of 2016. It started with a great analogy:

hnglidr wrote:Analogy

The Americana Bicycle Association has decided in the interest of all bicyclers and the Association that it is prudent and responsible to implement an insurance program to protect all people not involved with that particular activity. The Association will engage with those overseeing public lands and look to structure and control said activities in which a bicycle is used. Of course this is to protect the activity for future generations. The insurance scheme will require you to release any liability on the part of The Association or any other insured cyclist. A waiver will need to be signed by all those non-cycling individuals coming in contact with cyclist and areas in which that activity takes place.

As you may see the Association is committed to growth, implementing training programs and ratings, creating an insurance scheme, etc, But can't see the forest because the trees are in the way !

The Insurance should never have been a subject to access on any public lands to begin with. Now it's a cage.....I hate the idea of a bird in a cage.


That was a super comment ... back in 2016!!

A few hours later, AIRHEADSHORTCUT amplified the point with a story about a co-worker:

AIRHEADSHORTCUT wrote:I'm remembering a co-worker, who had fractured his leg riding a dirt bike (motorcycle). He said they were going to cancel his health insurance (They...the Company...and the insurance company). Later there was a campaign to charge those who ride Motorcycles higher Premiums. Neither actually happened..and he kept his job, too.....but that is what he was being told (I presume, by the human resources person)

It appears that Insurance companies sell it real hard to the organizations, agencies, and property owners....YOU NEED THIS OR YOU ARE DOOMED. And then look for as many ways as they can to exclude as many activities as they can get away with.


This wasn't looking good for U$HPA, so a few of the "USHPA Loyalists" like "Paul H" and "Airthug" began to chime in.

Paul H wrote:It's a very poor analogy.

The USHPA's insurance allowed hang glider pilots access to many areas of public lands where we were previously denied access.

Being denied that access by those in control of those public lands is a different issue. Who is going to step up to fund that legal battle?


At that point, "Mavi Gogun" (aka "Christopher LeFay"?) began posting links to bury the topic.

The original poster replied to the onslaught with:

hnglidr wrote:Paul, Chris, and Thug seem very narrow minded on this board, constantly seem to be cutting off any divergent view and will use any claim off the top of their head to disparage it. The Analogy is meant to widen a perspective. The name calling you cite is an understatement of the behavior, never the person.

Still waiting for details

The way I see it, the flying community only harmed itself by asking for permission for an activity I see as a human right.


The points made by "hnglidr" were very good. USHPA has harmed the sport by peddling their insurance model rather than using the laws that were actually created to protect land owners.

The topic sat (presumably "in the basement") for over 2 years. Then on March 14th, 2018 the topic was revived by "Thunderchicken" with this great post:

Thunderchicken wrote:Needing to be a member of the USHPA to use PUBLIC LAND would be akin to being forced to join the Sierra Club to go backpacking. It's rediculous. And I'm delighted more pilots are standing up to the Bullying the organization has dished out! It would be fun to count the still flying outlaw pilots out there and see what The organization has lost!


Slopeskimmer (Mike Jefferson) challenged Paul's earlier post:

Slopskimmer wrote:
Paul H wrote:It's a very poor analogy.

The USHPA's insurance allowed hang glider pilots access to many areas of public lands where we were previously denied access.

Being denied that access by those in control of those public lands is a different issue. Who is going to step up to fund that legal battle?


Paul, can you give us some data that supports your statement? Which site were previously denied then saved by the USHPA?


Mike Jefferson followed that with an amplification of the original analogy:

Slopeskimmer wrote:As I sit here and wait for Paul's response, I realize I could do this. I could start the United States Mountain Bike Association (USMBA) and start signing people up. It wouldn't be hard. First I have to tell all the mountain bikers that the could lose their house and bank books if they were sued by someone they could injure while riding. All the wealthy ones would be happy to join cause they have the most to lose and they got the extra cash to spend anyway. I could also make them feel good about it by telling them they would be contributing to the growth and preservation of the sport. After a while the well to do members would start pressuring the rest of the guys on the mountain that are riding regular steel framed bikes. You know the guys who ride for fun on beat up hand-me-down bikes. I really want this organization to succeed so I will immediately get special use permits to start relationships with the public parks to gain their trust. Special Use Permits in my area are for large groups of people to get permission to use the parks as a group. Large groups like weddings, athletic events etc. are generally more work for the park service employees to control and clean up after. SUP's especially at the NPS were never intended for on going usage and are at the discretion of the park superintendent. There is no government regulation which allows this. If there was it would be in the 36 CFR and trust me it aint. These federal regulations are all online. Later on I will convince the park employees that they can count on me to control all the other riders and they can sit on their butts and do nothing. If they give other groups permits it would be way too much work to manage. With the backing of one park employee I could then start charging or kicking out any bike rider who does not buy into our organization. Man, I will be rich in no time and I could mess with anyone who disagrees with me or starts a competing mountain bike organization. Right Bob K?


Right Mike.

That's essentially what's happened to the sport of hang gliding. USHPA and its operatives have worked their way into controlling access to our public lands. They're like a gang operating on our public property. Their scam has us paying to use the land that we already own as citizens.

But on hanggliding.org, ideas like these end up ... in the basement.

Read more: http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=34036
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Re: Great Analogy to U$HPA - Buried by hanggliding.org

Postby eagle » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:07 pm

Pangolieee Buli Dooo
Do You Know what that Means
Means , Im Gunna F**k You before You F**k Me


"Capiche"

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Re: Great Analogy to U$HPA - Buried by hanggliding.org

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:03 pm

So much for our Google outreach potential...
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Re: Great Analogy to U$HPA - Buried by hanggliding.org

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:12 am

Rick Masters wrote:So much for our Google outreach potential...

Translation:

Almost all search engines (including Google) scan web sites for content that they consider "questionable". That can include foul language (sometimes including words with asterisks). Images used to be difficult for them, but advances in artificial intelligence are breaking the image barrier as well. If any "bad" content is detected, they will drop a site's rating or remove it altogether. So it's in our interests to keep things clean.

On the other hand, we've got over 21,000 posts on this forum. In any collection of human discourse of that size, it's not uncommon to have a few off-color words or images.

But back to the first point, it's good to minimize it if we can.
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Re: Great Analogy to U$HPA - Buried by hanggliding.org

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:22 am

Back on topic, I just visited hanggliding.org, and sure enough, the topic was buried in the basement.

I only saw two people who seemed to be advocating for the burial, but it's a "minority rules" web site over there on hanggliding.org (and maybe a minority of one). How can anyone expect to improve the sport of hang gliding when dissenting comments are buried away out of view?

I believe a lot of what's wrong with hang gliding can be traced to the censorship by Jack and Davis.
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