[JoeF]

Just posted at SHGA forum in the politics sector:

There are some untruths in the SHGA statements on its overview page.
Stated:

What is required of a pilot to fly at Kagel?
- Current USHPA membership (card must be carried by the pilot).
- Understanding and demonstration of SHGA Rules, Guidelines, Site Dangers, and landing pattern.
- Hang/para glider pilots must be rated H/P-3 (Intermediate) or higher.
- H-2 (Novice) hang glider pilots and P-2 (Novice) paraglider pilots may fly if under the direct supervision of, or signed off by a local SHGA designated instructor.

PROOF OF SIGN-OFF MUST BE CARRIED BY THE PILOT.

Can I fly at Kagel if I'm not a SHGA member?
Yes, so long as you meet the requirements listed above and pay the $10 day use fee.

=====================
There are very many untrue things stated. It would seem to SHGA's benefit to remove the untrue statements rather than be known as carrying untrue statements.

Discussion start:
1. To "fly" Kagel with a hang glider does not require joining a certain corporation.

2. A hang glider pilot flying the Kagel airs does not have to carry any cards whatsover.

3. A hang glider pilot flying Kagel airs does not have to be familiar with or understand a private club's affairs, habits, patterns, rules, wishes, etc.

4. A hang glider pilot flying Kagel airs does not have to demonstrate a private club's rules, etc.

5. A hang glider pilot flying Kagel airs does not have to have a rating from any private corporation.

6. A novice-or-not hang glider pilot flying Kagel airs does not have to be under instruction by a private corporation's persons.

7. A hang glider pilot flying Kagel airs does not have to pay $10 to fly Kagel airs.

8. A hang glider pilot flying Kagel airs does not have to carry any proof of sign-off from anyone.


With so many untruths stated by SHGA on its overview page, a person might wonder about the soundness of the SHGA operation. Why would a corporation put such strong untruths on its front page? One would hope that members of the SHGA would move to form more truthful statements for the public to read. Something seems awfully off. Perhaps change in the text may be composed and posted soon.

I am hoping that the SHGA will bless itself by correcting the front page to a more truthful version. The truth will bring freedom, justice, better communications, and higher credibility for SHGA.

WORKSHOP ON REFORMED TEXT?
Start:
Maybe:
If a hang glider pilot wants to land a hang glider on the 4.33 acres owned by SHGA, then that pilot is to land holding ..... (such and so) on his or her person.

Sept4of2018challengesOverviewpage.JPG (77.01 KiB) Viewed 4526 times

[Rick Masters]

Good point, Joe.
Hang gliding groups need to stop looking at FAR 103 as the rationale for them to make their takeoff points cash cows for their organizations.
Granting or gaining exclusive control by a club over flying from public land is not the intent of FAR 103 and it has no legal basis.
All they really need to do is turn their demands into requests.
The vast majority of visiting pilots will be glad to chip in where it's obvious that the local club has put in a lot of work - particularly when they have procured private landing areas.
But there will always be a few who do not recognize the club's power to regulate.
It is important to understand that they are right.
All the demands you pointed out were not requirements under FAR 103.
They were made up by the club.
I will agree that they are reasonable expectations for any group of pilots trying to hold on to tokeoff and landing sites under 3PL insurance.
However, due to revisions in state recreational law, the insurance landscape is changing.
In many cases, 3PL USHPA insurance is no longer the best choice.
In its absence the rationale for prohibiting non-USHPA members from flying no longer exists.
Regardless of this, hang glider pilots cannot legally be banned from flying where ever they choose.

I think clubs tend to over-react when met with rogue pilots who will not follow their rules.
There aren't that many, and they don't make a significant difference.
It's much better to just let them fly. And it's the law.
Clubs will say, "But what if he flys into a bystander or damages private property?"
Well, he wasn't flying with the club's permission so it's all on him.
If you look at the record, there wasn't much threat there, anyway.
The bigger threat, by far, is that a complaint is lodged with the FAA by a pilot who has been denied his right to fly from public land.
I'm warning everyone: Don't go there.

[JoeF]

I took this matter semi=privately (presented the issue in SHGA forum and then at some resistance from its president, I took the post down and went to private BOD emails). After some discussions and after their BOD's meeting occurred this week, a conclusion was reached by the SHGA: they were not going to change anything on their "Overview" page; nada; zilch. So, now this post. I invite anyone interested to look at the page at SHGA and see if some false statements may be found; I find many and more than first round. But, now I invite others (perhaps I am all wet) to see if any false statements are made to the public. Your post here would quote something and then follow such with an analysis showing falsity; perhaps back up the claim. I will participate, but after some time for others to find something, if anything.
SHGA is invited to post their verbatim replies to me, if they wish to participate in this discussion; I do not know if they want their email responses published or not; SHGA is welcome herein.
Also, maybe SHGA BOD simply do not see any untrue statement on that page read by pilots and public; I cannot judge their intent; the most I can do is present backup for claims of falsity. SHGA might argue that they see no false statements. My intent was to help polish the brilliance of a significant SHGA. They did not yet find any cause for a polishing of their "Overview" page. Politely we stand in disagreement.

SHGA BOD have been directly invited by email to discuss matters here in this national hang gliding association's public forum.

SHGA BOD or others are invited to a topic at a national hang gliding association's forum topic:
Truth or not on SHGA's OVERVIEW page online

My reply to the SHGA BOD upon their conclusion:

Thank you for clarifying that you are not going to make any changes to the text within the "Overview" section of the SHGA website.
To connect, the text today found on that page is:

Where is Sylmar Flight Park?
The Sylmar Flight Park (landing zone) is located north of Los Angeles off the 210 freeway in the city of Sylmar. The Park is open daily from 8 AM until dusk.

Click here for a map and driving directions to Sylmar Flight Park.

How do I get to launch?
Kagel Mountain is located in the Angeles National Forest. The road to launch is a gated unimproved fire road off Little Tujunga Canyon Road. Visiting pilots must contact a current SHGA member for access to the road. A four-wheel drive vehicle is recommended. Pilots meet in the Flight Park (landing zone) and carpool to launch from there.


Launch is at 3,540' MSL and at 2,200' AGL, there is plenty of altitude to spare for a great flight. Sylmar is an inland desert flying site, with thermals and turbulence as strong as one will find anywhere. Wind direction is typically from the south during the day and switches to the north near sunset. There is a dirt ramp for south launches and a saddle for paragliders. The SHGA landing zone is an easy glide from launch and there are several streamers in the LZ.

What is required of a pilot to fly at Kagel?
- Current USHPA membership (card must be carried by the pilot).
- Understanding and demonstration of SHGA Rules, Guidelines, Site Dangers, and landing pattern.
- Hang/para glider pilots must be rated H/P-3 (Intermediate) or higher.
- H-2 (Novice) hang glider pilots and P-2 (Novice) paraglider pilots may fly if under the direct supervision of, or signed off by a local SHGA designated instructor.

PROOF OF SIGN-OFF MUST BE CARRIED BY THE PILOT.

Can I fly at Kagel if I'm not a SHGA member?
Yes, so long as you meet the requirements listed above and pay the $10 day use fee.

What is the local 2 meter ham radio frequency?
Most pilots fly with their radios tuned to 147.555 MHz.

====================================================================

So, the untrue statements on that page will not be altered per SHGA's BOD, apparently.
Noted.
The willingness to tell the public important things via untrue statements will not, I predict, help the SHGA's target of good community relations; there will be citizens who will be stressed by being told untrue things; how that stress may bite SHGA's purposes may be now a mystery. I was hoping that slight alterations in text to form true statements would reach to support the good objectives of SHGA. Just the core spirit of being willing to tell any untrue statement may profoundly come to bite the SHGA; one could wonder how deep that spirit might be working. Why avoid the little root effort to shine well? Texts last long and reach far. E.g., it is simply not true that a non-SHGA pilot flying Kagel must meet the listed requirements. How awful some non-SHGA pilot may feel about being told such untruth is now a mystery; but if that awful feeling
rises to action, then that action may well thwart SHGA's purposes. Similarly, for other points on the page.
Using falsity in the service of intended good objectives is a mode upheld by some philosophies.
It was my hope that SHGA would not adopt such a philosophy, but rather a philosophy that would not permit
using falsity to get objectives. Consider the history of the current pilot Logan J. Remillard, for example.

Thank you,
Lift,
Joe Faust