Personal Journals about Hang Gliding

Re: Flying with children

Postby Rick Masters » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:58 am

Would you deny the same opportunities to be afforded to all young people?

No. Just my own.
BTW, she fell off her bicycle and she's still alive.
Now, when I was a boy, my father called me back from a dangerous cliff I was attempting to scale without rope safety.
He denied me the opportunity to see if I could live or kill myself to climb a rock. He had other plans for me.
Then I went to college, got a job, married, raised a family and cared for his wife (my mother) in her old age.
Today I can go out anytime and climb a rock (or jump off one). Nobody will stop me. I am an adult.
I am not God or an omnipotent policeman. I am not going to take anyone's toys away.
I do suggest parents protect their children.
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Re: Flying with children

Postby ARP » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:21 pm

Rick Masters wrote:
Would you deny the same opportunities to be afforded to all young people?

No. Just my own.
BTW, she fell off her bicycle and she's still alive.
Now, when I was a boy, my father called me back from a dangerous cliff I was attempting to scale without rope safety.
He denied me the opportunity to see if I could live or kill myself to climb a rock. He had other plans for me.
Then I went to college, got a job, married, raised a family and cared for his wife (my mother) in her old age.
Today I can go out anytime and climb a rock (or jump off one). Nobody will stop me. I am an adult.
I am not God or an omnipotent policeman. I am not going to take anyone's toys away.
I do suggest parents protect their children.



You gave your daughter the chance to fail but I bet she soon learnt how to ride the bike and succeed. Your father would have probably given you a similar chance but in his wisdom assessed the risk as too high. As I said the difficult bit is to know when to let go. As adults we weigh up the risks and the repercussions of failure. That process needs to be learnt and allowing that to happen is how we protect our children.
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Re: Flying with children

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:01 am

Part of childhood is to learn to live and assess the dangers of living and to survive in a hostile world.

Image
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Image  "When we land, Johnny, you will be a man."
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Re: Flying with children

Postby ARP » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:49 pm

Some people fly with their dog. Why? Most pilots would not even consider doing so.

Most people take their children (of all ages) in a car, a boat an airliner. There are risks attached but the parents assess them to be acceptable. Who is to say what is acceptable if not the parents?
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Re: Flying with children

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:22 pm

Who is to say what is acceptable if not the parents?

The government, of course.
When an activity by citizens is not conducted responsibly, the government will often step in and either over-regulate it or stop it.
Argentina, for instance, has just introduced a Senate bill requiring the minimum age for hang glider pilots to be over 18 because a passenger fell from a paraglider.
It is always best for people involved in extreme sports to show some restraint or. at least, stay out of the public eye.
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Re: Flying with children

Postby ARP » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:14 pm

Rick Masters wrote:
Who is to say what is acceptable if not the parents?

The government, of course.
When an activity by citizens is not conducted responsibly, the government will often step in and either over-regulate it or stop it.
Argentina, for instance, has just introduced a Senate bill requiring the minimum age for hang glider pilots to be over 18 because a passenger fell from a paraglider.
It is always best for people involved in extreme sports to show some restraint or. at least, stay out of the public eye.


Knee jerk reactions by government is not unheard off in the UK. When the Scorpion Microlight (fixed wing ultralight), used by a flying school, crashed killing both instructor and student followed by a second with the same results the CAA banned all Scorpion microlights. Unfortunately there was another completely different microlight (flexwing type) that was included as it was also called Scorpion. From the start of hang gliding there were calls to ban it by the media as a few people had been killed. The press will try and make a story out of these incidents but ignore the fact that thousands of people die in car accidents every year. Your own government will not restrict gun ownership despite the number of children killed in mass shootings. Would they bother themselves with the few people that die in sport aviation ?
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Re: Flying with children

Postby magentabluesky » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:39 pm

ARP wrote:Who is to say what is acceptable if not the parents?

The government by the consent of the governed.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . . The Declaration of Independence

Children are endowed with certain unalienable Rights too. Namely to reach an age where they can pursue their own personal vision of Life, Liberty, and pursuit of Happiness being fully aware of the risks and assuming personal responsibility of the possible outcomes.

In the United States Part 103 governing Hang Gliding and Paragliding restricts operations to single occupants. Multi person operations are illegal or by FAA exemption.

FAA Preamble to Part 103 wrote:Single Occupant

The rule limits both powered and unpowered ultralight vehicles to a single occupant. A few commenters suggest that two-seat versions be available for carrying passengers or for training purposes. The basis for allowing ultralight vehicles to operate under special rules which do not require pilot and aircraft certification is the "sport" aspect of the operation.

For example, the assumption can be made that a person who elects, without pilot qualifications, to operate an uncertificated vehicle alone is fully aware of the risks involved. This assumption does not hold true of a passenger selected randomly from the general public. Persons in the general public will likely assume that the operator has certificated pilot qualifications.

Because pilot qualifications are not controlled or monitored, the single-occupant requirement is a necessary component in the continuation of the policies which allow the operation of ultralight vehicles free from many of the restrictions imposed on aircraft. Persons wishing to operate two place vehicles have the availability of existing provisions of the FAR's for conducting such operations.

What we get with Part 103 are some very simple rules to comply, no licensing of pilots, no certification of the aerial vehicles, and freedom to use the airspace safely. The whole premise is based on the single occupant pilot assuming the risk. If a parent wishes to take their children flying, get a pilot license and fly a certified aircraft. To quote the FAA, “Persons wishing to operate two place vehicles have the availability of existing provisions of the FAR's for conducting such operations.”

Tandem Exemptions to Part 103 are for parties engaged in the sport and recreation or training flights who mutually consent to the risk. Children do not have the experience to ascertain the risk and cannot legally consent.

As far as the benefits of Tandem Training Flights, my personal opinion is there are very little useful benefits in Tandem Training Flights. Tandem takeoff and landings require completely different techniques with another person that this is negative training to a new student. The Tandem Hang Glider’s control bar is rather large and limits the flair authority where most tandem pilots equip the gilder with landing gear, great for teaching the new student to land on wheels. If the parent wishes their children to land on wheels, use a certified aircraft with landing gear.

The FAA’s minimum age for soloing a glider is 14 years old. That is a good minimum age. If a young person of fourteen wishes to take up the sport of Hang Gliding, with the combined consent of his/her parents then start them off on the training hill, solo.
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Re: Flying with children

Postby ARP » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:56 am

magentabluesky wrote:
ARP wrote:Who is to say what is acceptable if not the parents?

The government by the consent of the governed.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed . . . The Declaration of Independence

Children are endowed with certain unalienable Rights too. Namely to reach an age where they can pursue their own personal vision of Life, Liberty, and pursuit of Happiness being fully aware of the risks and assuming personal responsibility of the possible outcomes.

In the United States Part 103 governing Hang Gliding and Paragliding restricts operations to single occupants. Multi person operations are illegal or by FAA exemption.

FAA Preamble to Part 103 wrote:Single Occupant

The rule limits both powered and unpowered ultralight vehicles to a single occupant. A few commenters suggest that two-seat versions be available for carrying passengers or for training purposes. The basis for allowing ultralight vehicles to operate under special rules which do not require pilot and aircraft certification is the "sport" aspect of the operation.

For example, the assumption can be made that a person who elects, without pilot qualifications, to operate an uncertificated vehicle alone is fully aware of the risks involved. This assumption does not hold true of a passenger selected randomly from the general public. Persons in the general public will likely assume that the operator has certificated pilot qualifications.

Because pilot qualifications are not controlled or monitored, the single-occupant requirement is a necessary component in the continuation of the policies which allow the operation of ultralight vehicles free from many of the restrictions imposed on aircraft. Persons wishing to operate two place vehicles have the availability of existing provisions of the FAR's for conducting such operations.

What we get with Part 103 are some very simple rules to comply, no licensing of pilots, no certification of the aerial vehicles, and freedom to use the airspace safely. The whole premise is based on the single occupant pilot assuming the risk. If a parent wishes to take their children flying, get a pilot license and fly a certified aircraft. To quote the FAA, “Persons wishing to operate two place vehicles have the availability of existing provisions of the FAR's for conducting such operations.”

Tandem Exemptions to Part 103 are for parties engaged in the sport and recreation or training flights who mutually consent to the risk. Children do not have the experience to ascertain the risk and cannot legally consent.

As far as the benefits of Tandem Training Flights, my personal opinion is there are very little useful benefits in Tandem Training Flights. Tandem takeoff and landings require completely different techniques with another person that this is negative training to a new student. The Tandem Hang Glider’s control bar is rather large and limits the flair authority where most tandem pilots equip the gilder with landing gear, great for teaching the new student to land on wheels. If the parent wishes their children to land on wheels, use a certified aircraft with landing gear.

The FAA’s minimum age for soloing a glider is 14 years old. That is a good minimum age. If a young person of fourteen wishes to take up the sport of Hang Gliding, with the combined consent of his/her parents then start them off on the training hill, solo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgxGq47BK_M It seems 12 years old is acceptable here.
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Re: Flying with children

Postby brianscharp » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:54 am

ARP wrote: Your own government will not restrict gun ownership despite the number of children killed in mass shootings. Would they bother themselves with the few people that die in sport aviation ?

They just might. There's no one paying them millions of dollars not to.

In that particular case it appears to be the children with the required fortitude to break the NRA's stranglehold.
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Re: Flying with children

Postby magentabluesky » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:31 am

As Rick said,
Rick Masters wrote:I am not God or an omnipotent policeman. I am not going to take anyone's toys away.
I do suggest parents protect their children.

I am not a big fan of arbitrary rules, but favor understanding concepts and applying them as sound rational judgments. With that being said, I don’t have a great issue with the video of a 12 year old soloing off of Lookout Mountain as long as his parents have truly been involved with supervising his training and ascertaining their son’s skill and judgment. The comments on the video are interesting as some have pointed out that some 30 year olds don’t have the judgment to fly a hang glider.

In the United States both Tandem and Towing are by exemptions to Part 103. Since the single occupant pilot assuming the risk is the foundational key stone to Part 103, those exemptions should require a minimum age of 18 years to engage those activities provided under the exemptions. The minimum 18 years of age should be written into the exemptions to Part 103.
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