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Curtiss photo study

Postby JoeF » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:06 pm

Topic ... to study the photo, its contents, people, incident or what? The honorary early US Hawks of the 1908 scene are invited to make themselves known; perhaps their families may have items for the story.
All comers are welcome to elucidate the hang glider scene ...

I do not see a tail; or I speculate that maybe the people are picking up pieces of the tail. Not sure, just speculating.
Exact location of the scene would be interesting.
And is hang gliding occurring at the site today? Details of the Curtiss hang gliding realm is invited.

The study clip photo is from some book which we hope to discover and post the title of.
Related, but not the book source of the clip study image: http://aviation-history.com/early/curtiss.htm
Present museum: http://www.glennhcurtissmuseum.org/
One clip from a museum online page:
"In December of 1907 they elected to move their operation to Hammondsport where Curtiss manufacturing facilities would be at their disposal (Curtiss also had a business to run). "
Though Curtiss was mostly about engines, the hang gliding rub is focus of the study.
Here is something:
Image "1907 AEA Glider" ... could it be the same as the study photo on Finger Lakes region?
Attachments
FLTandCurtiss.jpg
In 1908 in South Central New York off the present Finger Lakes Trail near the contemporary Curtiss Museum
FLTandCurtiss.jpg (55.31 KiB) Viewed 2396 times
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby JoeF » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:23 am

Image
So far:
1. My eyes seem to be seeing two distinct gliders shown in the post. The 1907 AEA (Aerial Experiment Association, founded by Alexander G. Bell) glider seems to have more ribs and wider chord than the glider shown in the 1908 Curtiss photo. What does anyone else see?
2. The white shed or house does not seem to be the dark wooded structures of the 1908 scene. So, my guess is that the two sites are distinct.
3. On the 1908 scene, in separate guessing actions, Scott Wise and I both came up with about the same spot on the map for the 1908 site: just south of modern Rte. 54, south of the modern Curtiss Museum. I await for someone to get into the Curtiss Museum library to see what is there about the hang glider matters; maybe they have paid attention to site challenge of the 1908 photo; maybe they have full details, etc.
4. So, I wonder yet if the 1908 photo scene was a day of the AEA or a day separate from the AEA.
5. Once the matter is explored, perhaps there could be a re-enactment celebration hang glider party at the site with a replica of the Curtiss-time biplane hang glider; the matter of the tail is still to be discovered. The two photos above seem to differ on the tail matter!

6. Related: The Life and Times of Glenn Hammond Curtiss by David Langley http://aviation-history.com/early/curtiss.htm
Related: AEA http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... iation-AEA

7. [ ] There may be two fully distinct hang gliders and two distinct sites in fuzzy focus in this discussion thread.
Attachments
FirstGuessCurtissHGsite.jpg
Both: Scott C. Wise and JoeF picked about the same spot in distinct research efforts. Scott lives near the site.
FirstGuessCurtissHGsite.jpg (86.93 KiB) Viewed 2388 times
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby simajim » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:43 am

The photo that you describe as 1907 AEA glider is used by many people, among other in Louis Casey's book on Curtiss and in the NA&SM archive. We believe that it is mislabeled.
1] The glider is different to what is known to be the AEA glider
2] All glider flights were made between 8-12 February 1908. The snow was on the ground and everyone was wearing heavy cloth (typical New York State winter). In this photo, the men wear short sleeves shirts.
3] As far as we know, Augustus Post was not in Hammondsport in February 1908.
This photo is used often, usually labeled AEA Chanute-type, but I do not know where it was actually taken, it is hard to make out the faces.
Hope this helps.
Simine
NB: In case you are interested a drawing of the glider can be found in the Bell Papers, Library of Congress
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:56 am

JoeF and simajim,

It's fascinating to see the history of hang gliding (and of aviation itself) through your correspondence. Thanks very much to both of you for your dignified efforts to inform each other ... and the rest of the world!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Sincerely,
Bob Kuczewski
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby simajim » Sun May 05, 2013 6:53 pm

Hello, everyone:

The story (or is it history?) surrounding Curtiss and the building / flying of the AEA glider fascinated me. So I did a little checking around. My article discussing the AEA glider just appeared in World War 1 Aero, I am attaching the first pages. More information and how to obtain the article can be obtained from their website: <www.ww1aeroinc.org>

I believe this 12-page documentary write-up gives the facts and how they happened, but I wonder if it fits into the history of hang gliding.
The last image in my article is the one shown in this group. My photo caption explains the background of this particular photo:

In closing, readers might be interested in seeing this photo, which propagates through literature and is commonly described as an AEA glider. It clearly is not. All glider flying was done between mid-January and early March 1908 in upstate New York. It is too cold to wear short sleeve shirts during the winter months. Also, even though several changes were made to the AEA glider, the general structure of this Chanute-type machine is quite different than the one built by the “Bell Boys”. Some sources state that Augustus Post is on the right hand of the glider, but we do not know yet where and when this particular photo was taken.


I enjoyed the research and am happy to report that eighteen images (many of which had not been published before) are reproduced, as well as a 3-view drawing of the glider.

Simine

P1.jpeg
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P2.png
P2.png (202.46 KiB) Viewed 2109 times

P3.png
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(images inserted by moderator)
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby JoeF » Sun May 05, 2013 7:16 pm

Thanks!

The blurb selling the issue of concern:
WW1 Aero #215 – May 2013


215, May 2013, 100 pages – GUSTAVE WHITEHEAD CONTROVERSY: Jane’s Credits Gustave Whitehead with First Powered Flight (From the Editor); Whitehead and the Wrights: 1 Myth? 2 Myths? 0 Myths? (Leo Opdycke); The Flight Claims of Gustave Whitehead / The Wright-Smithsonian Contract (Dr. Tom Crouch, Curator, NASM); Open Letters: John Brown, Tom Crouch; detail of Whitehead section (NASM photo); From Kite to Glider to Powered Flight: The AEA Gets Into the Air; Harrowing Tales of Pilot Training at Payne Field; Differences Between the Thomas-Morse S-4B and S-4C: Lessons and Questions From an Ongoing Restoration (Part 2); Museums & Organizations: Wright Company Factory Restoration / Monument Proposal, Deutsches Technikmuseum Pfalz D.VIII, Elliott Museum’s 1911 Willoughby “Pelican”, Brand New Gnome Rotary Engine; Aircraft: Pierre Racette’s Second Blériot XI-2 Project, Craftlab Vienna Project Updates (Rumpler C.IV 1463/17, Hansa-Brandenburg C.I Series 29 & Hansa- Brandenburg KD.I Series 28 “Starstrutter”); Models (includes review of Flyzone’s R/C Fokker Dr.1 and S.E.5a); Aero Sim Flying (landing the FSX Fokker Dr.1); New Releases; Rise of Flight Communiqués (Review: Halberstadt D.II, Roland C.IIa and Nieuport 17 (GBR)); Publications; Wants & Disposals; From the Board (2012 Financial Report)

Click here to purchase


Well they just received my $10 via my PayPal cash account. And I am downloading the subject issue and will take a look! Later .... 44 MB. I rarely spend money, but our poster's simajim enthusiasm got to me :) :!: Well, I am receiving good dividends for my investment. Very much of the material is substantially reachable on the Internet with considerable effort. However, some gems are made handy. In time I will report some. Nearly all the Gustave Whitehead controversy flow in the issue is elsewhere on the open Internet. The AEG glider study is interesting; there are some photos that I had not come upon before. AND continued thanks to Simine Short for all her good works; her book on Chanute is a living classic.
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby JoeF » Sun May 05, 2013 9:32 pm

A Hammondsport, New York, detail blueprint at Library of Congress from Bell's papers.
Title: Blueprint, September 24, 1908
Two sizes of the image are available online at the page: http://www.loc.gov/item/magbellbib003202

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/mss/magbell/143/14300401/0001.jpg
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby simajim » Mon May 06, 2013 4:10 am

Much of the information on the AEA team and Curtiss and the glider building/flying was retrieved from the Library of Congress, and of course the Curtiss museum in Hammondsport, NY.
I am now considering doing a similar research on Whitehead. Will see how far I get.
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby SamKellner » Mon May 06, 2013 4:49 am

bobk wrote:It's fascinating to see the history of hang gliding (and of aviation itself) through your correspondence.


That's what I say, also. :clap: That is history. Would make some good episodes to watch on History channel. A lot better than pawn stars,???? once in a while a historic item brought in.

Yes thanks for searching/preserving the facts and keeping the info out there for all to see. :thumbup: :thumbup:

:wave: ,
Sam
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Re: Curtiss photo study

Postby JoeF » Mon May 06, 2013 7:38 am

simajim wrote:Much of the information on the AEA team and Curtiss and the glider building/flying was retrieved from the Library of Congress, and of course the Curtiss museum in Hammondsport, NY.
I am now considering doing a similar research on Whitehead. Will see how far I get.
Simine


Simine,
While delving into Gustave Whitehead's legacy, I trust you will open much of the implications found in his patents, and especially the one showing clearly an understanding of flexible-wing hang gliding with control frame and tether-hung pilot.
Image Caption and colorization and clip cutting was my recent doing. See full patent for unabridged claims and drawings.
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