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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby Bill Cummings » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:51 pm

I've sold my boat with its base bar/control bar launching yoke (steel not wooden).
I lent the winch out once and when I got it back it had been "Improved/remodeled"
to the point of 99% worthless. Things that were supposed to be free floating were
welded solid. There were more profound "Improvements," but anyway it now sits
in my garage holding over 3000' of towline. Its good for that. I'm saving it as an
anchor so as to hook a chain and manacle to it.
I still have floats for a glider (Here in the desert of New Mexico.)
I would be willing to meet in front of Torrey or on top of Torrey to assist
with my knowledge of both land and water towing. On one condition.
Everyone in the tow party doesn't object to me carrying a pressurized boat
horn so that every pass I make in front of the Torrey Compound I give a
very long BLAST indicating that I'm about to pass in front of launch.
Deal?
PS: I'm serious about meeting out there to tow.
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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby JoeF » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:38 am

Red-tape congested: Torrey.
Thanks, Bill, for your willingness to supply YOU and your skills and equipment!
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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby wingspan33 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:22 pm

Bill and Joe,

It's time to DO IT! :thumbup:
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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby Bill Cummings » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:53 pm

Sam,
Let's go out there with your scooter. Joe can work on clearance to tow from up top.
OR can someone provide a boat and winch/reel?
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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby wingspan33 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:21 pm

Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby SamKellner » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:42 pm

The scooter will do it !

Is the sailplane rwy part of concessionaire lease?

We need to get Logan in on this, to get the paperwork from UCSD or State of Ca. , Parks and Wildlife.

Like he did at POM.

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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby SamKellner » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:09 pm

Red wrote:Sam,

I have watched pay-out winch towing of HGs up to 4500' (~1370m) AGL.


Watched ?

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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby SamKellner » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:11 pm

.......

Red sent a reply. On that other forum that is run by the u$hPa puppet, Jack Axxxxxx.

I havent logged in there in years, and really have no desire.

Just received the notice on e-mail. Subject was "Yep Watched"

That's all I know about it.

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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby Bill Cummings » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:03 pm

Some things to think about for towing in front from Torrey Pines Beach.
Some state parks in Minnesota prohibit flying over lakes adjacent to the park.
I forget what the distance from the shoreline one must be.
I no longer remember if motorized or non-motorized made a difference.
Can you pull water skiers from Black’s Beach?
Riparian Rights: Property with these rights extend to the shore at any tide level.
What is the depth of the beach during high tide and also low tide? (Shoreline to cliff.)
How far from the shoreline is there at least three feet of water depth?
(With waves three feet is about the minimum depth for a small boat’s propeller.)
How high are the whitecaps on the ocean when it is soar-able at Torrey with HG?
Is it sandy bottom out from shore or are there any rocks?
How far is the nearest boat launching location? And any Fee?
For waves with whitecaps you need a V-Hull boat. A Tri-Hull will beat you senseless.


A slight crosswind into the beach isn’t much of a problem if you just have the boat up wind of the glider.
For a big crosswind situation you can pound an inch and a quarter by two feet long pipe half way into the ground 200’ straight upwind of the glider. Drape the towline on the side of the stake so that it will
hold the towline until you are airborne and lift the towline clear of the crosswind stake.
I have done this to straighten out as much as a 90º crosswind.

On my YouTube channel, “Bill Cummings Channel” (The one with the glider icon)
I have a video that uses a crosswind stake for towing. (Exit 116)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6IFmX3t2vg

Many times a slight crosswind into the beach will get extremely crosswind near the base of the cliff. Also much lighter wind. The crosswind stake will mitigate the crosswind so much so that the pilot is taking off straight into the wind toward the stake.
Once airborne the towline will lift above the crosswind stake and be free of it to be now towing from the boat’s direction and no longer the stake that is/was straight upwind from the glider.
Adding in crosswind stake works so well that there is practically no learning curve to worry about.
Basic advice is the stake should be about 200’ from the glider and if the rope is on the right side of the stake your best flight path is at the stake or slightly to the right. Less optimal would be having the rope on the right side of the stake (for example) and allowing you glider to turn to the left side of the crosswind stake.

I see a pier on some of the Torrey pictures. Is it available? How long is the pier?
Could a pulley be fastened to the end of the pier and use a scooter to tow? Or could the scooter be located on the end of the pier?

When towing on Lake Pepin in front of the 475 foot cliffs we would tow to about 700’ to 800’ altitude out from the cliffs to arrive back at the cliff edge at the height of the cliff.

No one has to learn all this since I would bring all this knowledge and more and demonstrate for you.

If a long scooter towline could be run from permissible beach north or south of Torrey a crosswind stake could be used to launch. The pilot would have to crab along the beach then swing out from the cliff so that the towline would not fall on the cliff and tangle with growth.
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Re: Recreational Hang Gliding is About to Enter a New Era

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:45 pm

Thanks for all your careful thoughts Bill. There's no one on the planet that I would trust for water towing advice more than you.

Before I jump into answers, I'll confess that I think ocean towing would be a highly impractical and expensive solution to a bureaucratic corruption problem. I think the money and time required would be better spent on lawyers to properly open our public property ... to the public. But since you know water towing so well, there may be some pleasant surprises for me down that road. So here are my answers.

Bill Cummings wrote:Can you pull water skiers from Black’s Beach?

I don't know the legalities, but as a long time water skier I think it would be very very difficult to get through the surf zone on water skis. This would be especially true on a good soaring day. It might be possible to get airborne before entering the water, but getting the tow rope into shore through the surf zone could be tricky. Maybe a kite?

Bill Cummings wrote:What is the depth of the beach during high tide and also low tide? (Shoreline to cliff.)

It can vary, but I think there's plenty of beach to work with (maybe a few hundred feet).

Bill Cummings wrote:How far from the shoreline is there at least three feet of water depth?

I'd guess 30 to 50 feet in places. But that's all in the surf zone.

Bill Cummings wrote:How high are the whitecaps on the ocean when it is soar-able at Torrey with HG?

Maybe 3 to 5 feet? People surf at Black's Beach fairly regularly. I think dealing with the surf and salt water would be the biggest obstacles to beach towing.

Bill Cummings wrote:Is it sandy bottom out from shore or are there any rocks?

I believe it's all sandy bottom.

Bill Cummings wrote:How far is the nearest boat launching location? And any Fee?

I'm not exactly sure, but I think there's a free launch not too far south of the pier. I know they use it for small unpowered boats, but I don't recall ever seeing a ski-boat be put in there. I think this could be worked out.

Bill Cummings wrote:I see a pier on some of the Torrey pictures. Is it available? How long is the pier?
Could a pulley be fastened to the end of the pier and use a scooter to tow? Or could the scooter be located on the end of the pier?

That's Scripps Pier and I think it's dedicated to ocean research. I doubt that it could be used in any way, but with the right connections ... anything is possible.

Here's a suggestion. I think you and Terry should come and visit for a few days. You can be my guest during your visit and we can go explore all kinds of options. If you come during the Otto Meet (in May) you can enjoy that as well. We can talk off-line if you're interested.
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