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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:43 am

Frank Colver Again!!

This time Frank spoke up for Joe Faust.
http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=36186

Frank Colver wrote:If it hadn't been for Joe Faust publicizing the efforts of individual hang glider experimenters in the late 60's and early 70's and organizing the first ever hang gliding meet, May 23, 1971, we may all be doing something other than flying HG & PG now.

His latest effort to improve the HG world was to create a national registry for all hang rated pilots. This is so that they do not have to pay $150 / year to keep their ratings if they are flying sites that don't require insurance. If they don't pay up for three years all records of their hang ratings are gone forever. It's as if the pilot never flew a hang glider.

I have maintained my membership since the day I voted to create the USHGA which became USHPA. But in the 1990's i wasn't flying anymore so I joined for three years as "non- Pilot" for $30 instead of $100+. As soon as i realized that my H3 rating was gone I went back to full membership even though I didn't fly for a total of 36 years. When I started flying again I had to get an instructor to reinstate my rating. If you think I forgot how to fly a hang glider then check out the video of my recent flight at Point of the Mountain, in another topic on this forum.

Hang ratings are public information and anyone can make a list of pilots and their current rating that wants to do so. No body can close the public record! Everyone that Joe has the public information for is listed in the new national registry, so a record of their rating is not lost and has not expired. Kudos to Joe, but for that effort he was banned from this forum. :crazy:

Please everyone, write for Joe's reestablishment in this forum and let him continue his efforts to help you keep the record of your hang ratings permanently. After you are gone there will still be a place that says to everyone that you flew and had this rating. USHPA will not have any record after three years of your absence.

Frank Colver, USHPA #7 (current)


:salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:
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:salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby JoeF » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:24 pm

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Thank you, Frank. Right stuff thou art.
===========================================
With that topic locked after sg made reply, no one in the forum there may correct sg's misunderstandings or refute his statements or suggest other perspectives or politely present other perspectives.

Here are some things I get from the sg reply to Frank:

1. It seems that sg thinks USHGRS is a membership-joining organization. That would be false. USHGRS up front declares that it is not a membership joining/unjoining org, but merely an agent that certifies ratings statements. Done. No joining. No unjoining; but there is a process for removing and reinstalling Pilot Pages.

2. sg cannot and say he will not have drama in his forum. I did not see any drama from me. He might look to the drama he posted to bully matters in the topic USHGRS. We have full copy of the four long page topic thread; he inserted huge drama for some reason. sg broke his own policy of bringing in BobK matters; sg did so off topic and in a huge dramatic fashion.

3. Trust may have been broken with regard to sg forum. How much does he simply delete? He also changes text authored by fair postings. So, how much does he change the text that has been posted in discussions. How might sg rebuild trust in his forum? If he does not rebuild trust, then what participation can he expect? Authors who treasure their postings may question deeply the vulnerability of their investment of time and thought and sharing.

4. sg seems not to have an appreciation of agents that independently forward ratings over people, products, bonds, neighborhood qualities, charities, football players, athletes, communities, banks, politicians, HG Pilots' proficiency, etc.

5. sg seems not to appreciate that he too could rate HG Pilots' proficiency and rate them.

6. sg is seeing correctly that the rating stated at Pilot Pages are the responsibility of USHGRS and are not carbon copies of anyone else's rating nor any entities rating. USHGRS takes full responsibility for its statement of ratings among: H0, H1, H2, H3, H4, HGP, S-SA Otto-0. What sg misses is that USHGRS is not by policy rubber stamping anyone's local or national or international rating. The standards at USHGRS are high; cases go through an extensive and profound review process. When the committee has overcome any objections to a proposed USHGRS rating statement, then the rating is published for the world.

7. At any moment a rated HG Pilot may die from any number of natural or artificial causes. Upon a death of a HG Pilot, the file is not deleted, but maintained and probably copied by Internet Archive. And USHGRS honors the history of HG Pilots and will include them in the process of certified ratings.

8. At Q&A updated, sg has been welcome to see the questions and answers. And he may suggest a question or/and answer. See Q&A.

9. Hey, sg, have you considered banning those who get pissed off at polite idea sharing? Why ban the topic or the poster who is sharing politely? Why be ruled personally by people who seem to get pissed off. Or maybe encourage them to use their pissed off energy to compose thoughtful polite replies. And, sg, you might pause and weigh how much your off-topic bully drama insertion stirred up the pissing flow; you robustly inserted dramatic cartoon of matter that you had stated to all was fully disallowed in your forum; how does that work? And you published policy to treat you as a regular member of your own forum; but when I reported to you owner about your off-topic drama, then you slammed me for treating you as a regular member by my reporting your posts to you. Hard to have things all ways, sg, it seems. Consider putting the USHGRS topic back up; consider unbanning authors who are respecting readers and your forum. If you demand that agents off fair things or else you will ban them, then it is suggested that you study such process; how is that working for your ends?

10. sg, I find that you have been added to lists formed within other forums. You are on a list of forum owners; and you did not do a deliberate act to join that list; however, by the act of becoming an owner of a HG forum, you qualified to be a member of that collection that was list expressed. I easily can think of other lists that you are a member of without you overtly asking to have your name joined. If you prove that you are not a HG Pilot in the public arena, then USHGRS will remove your name from its list, as the list intends to have only HG Pilots who have used the United States airspace for recreational hang gliding. For instance, Bill Moyes (Australan who has used US airspace for recreational hang gliding) is listed with a Pilot Page. At any moment we might lose him from Earth as he soars beyond Earth; USHGRS will retain his Pilot Page; and Internet Archive will probably keep a copy of such also. USHGRS no where states that you have joined its entity. If there is something on the Pilot Page that has title of your name that is not true, please send a note to USHGRS at info@ushgrs.org and the correction will be made to better reflect what is more accurate. Thanks for any moment used to correct things. It is correct that you did not overtly join USHGRS. But your public-domain placed name and activity makes you fairly vulnerable to people rating your public activity; people do that; and rating agents do similarly. Rating people and entities is ubiquitous in our society. And being independent of who or what is rated is an important quality of distance from conflict-of-interest issues. sg, if you want to disappear from the hang gliding community while you are alive and actually stop appearing in the hang gliding community, then USHGRS would cooperate with you and remove your Pilot Page until you pass from Earth; then USHGRS might resurrect your Pilot Page with a note of (RIP). But sg, you are still active in the public hang gliding community.

11. sg, you published: "I do not hold a rating in his org". That is true if read for the facts. The fact is that USHGRS rated your HG proficiency and states that USHGRS owns the statement of such. You do not have to carry USHGRS rating into your heart; you may keep whatever distance you wish from USHGRS' statement, even so that not any part of you "holds" to the matter. Your choice. Or you may feed data to our ratings-review committee for further consideration; perhaps you have data that is not in the case file about your hang gliding at USHGRS that would sway the reviewing committee to state HGP or state S-SA Otto-0 in regard to your name; such inputs by HG Pilots are welcome.
Last edited by JoeF on Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Rick Masters » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:37 pm

Joe, I previously stated that if I were running USHGRS, I would post only the names of those who requested insertion.
I would like to retract that.
You are correct by including all U.S. hang glider pilots.
You are even correct by including pilots who wish not to be included.
If they have earned a rating, it should be in there.
I see now that USHGRS is like the telephone white pages, except there are no unlisted nuimbers (as that would not make sense in a rating system).
If I am wondering if sg is a hang glider pilot or just a wannabe, I can now go to USHGRS and find out.
If I am wondering if BobK has advanced hang gliding skills, I can go to USHGRS to find out.
As Frank Colver has pointed out, this cannot be done at USHPA due to their greed in removing ratings after a period of non-tithing.
Or even worse, banning members for political nonsense.
Hang gliding is not a religion or a political philosophy.
Our ratings are earned and, apparently, now kept only by USHGRS.
So much for the credibility of the USPHA and its untrustworthy doppelganger forums.
Thank you for doing this, Joe.
You are truly a pioneer.
I appreciate the continuing education.
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:19 am

Rick Masters wrote:Joe, I previously stated that if I were running USHGRS, I would post only the names of those who requested insertion.
I would like to retract that.
You are correct by including all U.S. hang glider pilots.
You are even correct by including pilots who wish not to be included.
If they have earned a rating, it should be in there.
I see now that USHGRS is like the telephone white pages, except there are no unlisted nuimbers (as that would not make sense in a rating system).
If I am wondering if sg is a hang glider pilot or just a wannabe, I can now go to USHGRS and find out.
If I am wondering if BobK has advanced hang gliding skills, I can go to USHGRS to find out.
As Frank Colver has pointed out, this cannot be done at USHPA due to their greed in removing ratings after a period of non-tithing.
Or even worse, banning members for political nonsense.
Hang gliding is not a religion or a political philosophy.
Our ratings are earned and, apparently, now kept only by USHGRS.
So much for the credibility of the USPHA and its untrustworthy doppelganger forums.
Thank you for doing this, Joe.
You are truly a pioneer.
I appreciate the continuing education.


I wanted to quote just a few lines out of this, but there's nothing I can leave out Rick. It's beautiful.

:salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Frank Colver » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:09 pm

Yes. I have been calling USHGRS a "national registry" of hang glider ratings. That is exactly what it is and it should be available to anyone to see anybody's HG rating. The ratings are public information and a national database was needed and Joe filled that need, Thanks Joe.

The USHGRS also fills an historic need to preserve records of people and their ratings after they are gone (it's terribly difficult to maintain a USHPA membership when you are dead).

I explained all of this on HG.org but was immediately put in the basement and locked.

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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:49 am

Frank Colver wrote:Yes. I have been calling USHGRS a "national registry" of hang glider ratings. That is exactly what it is and it should be available to anyone to see anybody's HG rating. The ratings are public information and a national database was needed and Joe filled that need, Thanks Joe.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Frank Colver wrote:The USHGRS also fills an historic need to preserve records of people and their ratings after they are gone (it's terribly difficult to maintain a USHPA membership when you are dead).


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Frank Colver wrote:I explained all of this on HG.org but was immediately put in the basement and locked.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Frank, every time you speak calmly and rationally on hanggliding.org you put yourself in a win-win situation. You either get your message heard or you get more evidence of Jack's censorship. Your intention is the first, but if Jack gives you the second, then it's on him.

:salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute: :salute:
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Frank Colver » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:36 pm

I just posted this on HG.org:

Requesting the names of banned persons

I was accused of "shilling" for a banned person. I would like to prevent that happening again in the future. I have no idea how many "persona non grata" folks there were on this forum, who might cause me to accidentally "shill" again, if I mention a name that I did not know was banned.

I'm requesting that the moderator provide a place to click on, which would provide a list of those who have been banned since the inception of this forum. This would be very helpful in preventing accidental "shilling" by any current forum participants.

Currently there are only two banned names that can be clicked on and identified on this forum but I know there are more. I won't mention those and risk "shilling" again.

Thanking the moderator in advance for providing us access to the list of the banned.

Trying to do the right thing, :?
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Bob Kuczewski » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:12 pm

That sounds very logical and reasonable Frank. We have a list of the people who are banned or restricted here on the U.S. Hawks. I've always felt that if you're going to silence someone, then you ought to be up front about it and stand behind that action.

As a democratic society, the United States provides due process for our citizens. It's a public process to help ensure that everything is on the up and up. When I think of people 'disappearing" without a trace, it reminds me of Nazi Germany and other totalitarian nightmares.

So what made-up rule did you break this time? I can tell everyone that Frank isn't "shilling" for me. I would have wanted Frank to press for a reason for Joe's ban. I would have wanted Frank to ask why the acronym "USHGRS" isn't permitted on hanggliding.org. In fact there's a whole (sometimes not so friendly) discussion about that. And, indeed, Frank did NOT post what I would have wanted and he's still being threatened by Jack "thought police" Axoupolous.    :roll:
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby JoeF » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:59 pm

sg replied in his Basement to Frank:
RE: ASKING FOR NAMES OF ALL HG.ORG BANNED PERSONS.#405579
By sg - Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:11 pm
Not going to play these silly bobK games. People know what you guys are up to and they report it to me. Members here are not idiots. You knew for a fact the person in question was banned. Either be a part of this community and leave bob and his little crew of extremists out of it, or just stay on the other forum. Not giving them ammo to badger and harass more people here. Have no patience for the insanity spilling over from bobs site. Dont do it again. Final warning.

Its sad to see you so easily fooled by Bob and crew. He plays a good game. Fooled me once too. But there is a reason he's banned from everywhere. The guy even asked me to blatantly RIG an election. But I guess you believe all his BULLSHIT EXCUSES even though I have 100% evidence.

Last time I will ask you. Leave all things Bob off this site. We're all sick of his crap.


Read more: http://forum.hanggliding.org/viewtopic. ... z5WzicN2LJ

And, of course, sg locked the topic, so no retort may be made in his space.
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Re: Hero Hawks

Postby Rick Masters » Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am

It's good to see this issue openly discussed on the US Hawks Forum, where we know it will still be here next week.

    forum noun
    fo·​rum | \ˈfȯr-əm \
    plural forums also fora\ ˈfȯr-​ə \
    Definition of forum: a public meeting place for open discussion

Image
Regardless, most hang glider pilots seem to prefer to be protected from their own errant thoughts by flocking to the nanny doppelganger "forums".
But that's okay. I mean, would you want to be in the air with this guy?
You can't clear your thoughts - or your turns - with blinders on.
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