US Hawks Hang Gliding Association

Discussion of Risk Management – “Sully”

The release of the movie “Sully” is next month on September 9th depicting the Flight 1549, ditching a commercial airliner in the Hudson River after a duel engine failure.

Sully

I was wondering if there were lessons of managing risk in the decisions Sully made in the emergency that would help us in managing our risks as hang glider pilots.

What were the decisions and choices confronting Sully after hitting the geese and losing power in both engines?

What were his landing choices, LaGuardia, Kennedy, Newark, Teterboro, Hudson River?

US Airways Flight 1549

How does this relate to Hang Gliding in choosing a bailout landing spot after takeoff? (for whatever)

If you tow, do you have alternate landing areas for an early release or weak link break?

Does your aero tow pilot keep you within gliding distance to return to the glider port?

In your landing self briefing do you have alternate landing spots if you hit sink or head wind?

In a bailout landing have you considered all the obstacles, hazards, and traffic in your unexpected/unplanned landing?

Why Can’t We Get a Handle On This Safety Thing – Mike Meier

So can we learn anything from “Sully” and the lessons of Flight 1549 in managing our risk?

These may be topics addressed in the movie.

Should Sully have tried to land the jet back at LaGuardia Airport or Teterboro Airport?

Airbus Simulator Pilots reproducing the conditions successfully landed back at LaGuardia.

If you have a Home Flight Simulator you can do your own simulation. These are my best estimates of the data when the bird-strike occurred:

Lat: N 40 deg 50.7 min

Lon: W 73 deg 52.5 min

Altitude: 2818

Hdg: 350

Speed: 220 kts

Freq: LGA VOR: 113.1 LGA ILS 13 108.5 TEB ILS 06 108.4 (Back Coarse Rwy 24)

The jet has just a little bit better glide ratio than our flex-wings.

Did the fact that Sully was a licensed Glider Pilot influence his decision that off airport “landings” were acceptable and maybe preferable considering the risk?

NTSB Report Flight 1549

Now that is an accident report.

Should Sully have tried to land the jet back at LaGuardia Airport or Teterboro Airport?

No.
He didn't think he could make it.
As pilot-in-command, right or wrong, it was his call.

Did the fact that Sully was a licensed Glider Pilot influence his decision that off airport “landings” were acceptable and maybe preferable considering the risk?

Hell yeah.
It was a BF glider, after all.

magentabluesky wrote:
Now that is an accident report.

Indeed....great accident report.....this guy is a great pilot...cool head....zero panic...good call to use the hudson....risk to ground occupants zero even if unsuccessful unless there was a random boater or fisherman on the hudson impact site(small risk) A thoughtful and responsible choice.

I have very little general aviation experience....Only been up in small planes three times..Cessna 152s all three times......pretty easy to fly....I performed the take off one time....pretty easy...just give her the gas and hold her steady.....one was a 152 aerobat....my host was an accomplished aero pilot, an older gentleman named Bob....(since passed) Bob did a few loops and barrel rolls then gave me the controls to do the same.....pretty easy but I killed the engine upside down on the third consecutive loop and Bob had to bail me out and do the restart....
I have been wondering.....the uphill, downwind landing technique we often use....
Are general aviation pilots taught that technique just in case?
I hear about planes that go down in steep terrain and I wonder...what if?
What if the pilot, once he knows he is NOT going to make it out to a safe LZ.....
What if the Pilot in Command picks a suitable clear-cut on a very steep hillside and intentionally dives straight into it with enough speed to pull up and match the slope?
normal stall on a 152 was around 50 I think I remember.....crashing into tall firs at fifty is gonna kill ya for sure....but....if I can land my glider with a stall speed of 22 Mph on a 45 degree slope with a 10 mph tailwind and touch down at nearly zero groundspeed.....what could a small plane do by diving straight in to a clear cut on a 45 degree to 65 degree slope (the steeper the better)....do the round out...now the nose is pointed upward aobut 60 degrees..matching the steep slope of the mountain side flying only a few feet off the stumps..... THEN, just before stall perhaps, FLARE that thing hard and allow gravity to act as a brake dropping the entire aircraft from a very low height straight down into those stumps or perhaps it would be better to pick a steep slope with five year old firs growing....they would be about eight feet tall and very springy...
Gravity is a powerful tailhook.......What would the forward speed be reduced to?
Would this be a valid technique for ditching in the mountains that could be taught? is it already taught? or would the lower impact speed not be low enough to be survivable?
I guess that would depend on the steepness of the slope eh?
...I am curious

Hawks,

One of my favorite quotes:

Capt. Sully

We're on glide for the Hudson

On glide for the Hudson!!!!
how about....on glide for those tag alders?
The site I am going to fly from for the suprone bar promo demands a 10 to 1 glide in calm air to a safe LZ...I am flying an old super sport....any sink is going to put me into a steep gorge with a raging river (with very few sand bars) at the bottom running along hwy 2 (a totally un-landable HWY)
the slopes on either side are 60 degree plus...3,000 feet high on one side....6,000 feet high on the other side, and yet I feel okay flying from this site but only after I drive up and down hwy 2 looking for ONE thing within a 3 to 1 glide from launch.....what am I going to look for?
Tag Alders....with a good approach....I wont even care about wind direction.....I have done this before...
the shock absorption of tag alders is HUGE and has saved my bacon on more than one occasion....
I consider Tag Alders a totally acceptable LZ.....just hit them in the bushiest section, then ball up and cover thy face before impact
Tag alders...always low to the ground.....along the river, hwy or maybe along a yard or field far too small to land in the regular way....will most likely do no damage to pilot or glider unless a branch breaks off and stabs you...but they are very pliable....they dont break off easily in spring, summer, or early fall when they are still very green.
I would have no problem diving my glider into a small yard too short to stop in time but with a huge stand of tag alders at the stopping end.....just crash right into them....it will probably work out just fine.....of course, since I am going to look for this bailout LZ intentionally I will also have the luxury of inspection the tag alder patch for hidden stumps, tractors, and more substantial hazards a person might not see from the air.
Another lifesaver is hitting a big deciduous tree dead center but the retrieve is more difficult (higher off the ground)...glider usually catches in the branches.....but not always....I saw a competitor hit an apple tree dead center at the womens world championships in chelan....half the apples fell off the tree like rain.....the whole tree got bent one direction....absorbed all the force of the full speed impact, then THREW the glider and pilot back out of the tree onto the ground about 8 feet below...it was like the pilot flew full speed onto a trampoline.....then got thrown off the trampoline......but both the pilot and the glider were unharmed.
Another option if all you have is 150 foot tall firs as far as the eye can see is throw your chute before you get too low and the throw your chute option dissapears.....chances are a big chute full of small lines connected to a glider full of wires via the bridle is going to catch on something and break your fall substantially...
it is the trees that are saving paraglider lives here on the wetside (westside) of the cascades....look up the stats...the vast majority of paraglider deaths are taking place on the east side of the mountains where there are no trees to catch lines and stop the plummet.

Ah, there's no substitute for large flaps!

Looks like great fun!

Frank C.

NTSB investigation of "Sully" movie
'I think we're getting the dirty end of the stick here,' said Robert Benzon, who oversaw the [NTSB] investigation before retiring in 2012.
He even compared the realism of the events portrayed by the film to 'somewhere between Sharknado 2 and Sharknado 3.
'I just hope it isn't as bad as everyone is telling me it is.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3778455/Any-good-story-villain-Sully-crash-investigators-unhappy-unfair-portrayal-movie.html