[Bob Kuczewski]

From: http://www.hanggliding.org/viewtopic.php?t=32681# and http://www.kitestrings.org/topic14-1430.html#p8956

Among ourselves, we agree (via the waiver) that we understand we're engaged in a risky sport that can cause serious injury or death. We each agree that we are personally and individually responsible for our own safety. If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be. We sign at the bottom saying that we fully understand these things, that we accept them, and that we know we are giving up the right to sue anybody if an accident happens.

Those are fundamental tenets of our sport. We are all individually responsible for ourselves and our safety. We need to see and avoid all other pilots, avoid crashing into people or property and use good judgment when flying. If someone doesn't agree with those principles, then they don't need to be involved in our sport.

MGF

This is a public statement by USHPA's long time Treasurer, Insurance Chairman, and member of the Executive Committee. Pay special attention to this part:

If we have an accident and get hurt, we agree in advance that it is solely our own fault, no matter what the circumstances might be.

"no matter what the circumstances might be"?

So "circumstances" don't matter? Who's at fault doesn't matter? That's the definition of irresponsibility, and the fact that it's being pushed from the top by people like Mark Forbes ... is exactly why USHPA has become uninsurable.

Does the FAA know that the "circumstances" of accidents don't matter ... to a member of USHPA's Executive Committee?

It's policies like these that punish good responsible pilots and reward the irresponsible yahoos who are killing hang gliding.

Irresponsibility may be a "fundamental tenet" of hang gliding at USHPA ... but NOT at the US Hawks!!!!

[Rick Masters]

Sign right here, Mark:
http://www.legacy.com/guestbooks/daily-times/arys-thoring-moorehead-condolences/174529307
"On behalf of the USHPA, we would like you to know that circumstances don't matter."


As we all know, Kelly Harrison was an outlaw, no longer a member of USHPA.
He advertised joyrides and made a living doing it.
Probably hundreds of USHPA members knew he was doing it.
How about it, Desert Skywalkers?
But since he was hang gliding, circumstances don't matter, I am told.

- Form a recreational hang gliding association where circumstances matter -

[SamKellner]

As we all know, Kelly Harrison was an outlaw, no longer a member of USHPA.
-

I don't remember reading that part in the accident report sent out by ushpa
I do remember they reminded those that received the report we were sworn to secrecy
Maybe I should re read that

But with that being true why was ushpa involved?

[Rick Masters]

I don't remember reading that part in the accident report sent out by ushpa

That's right. I forgot.

John Kelly Harrison - 55 - Nevada - 53375 - H5 - 1996/10/23 - Joe Greblo - PL TFL TPL AWCL CL FSL RLF TUR XC - ADV INST, TAND INST - Exp: 2015/06/30

Uh-oh. You mean they were letting him do it?
I get it. Circumstances don't matter, so you can do whatever you want.
That must be it.
And nobody said anything because circumstances don't matter.
Or should that be circum$tance$ don't matter.
That's it!
Circum$tance$ don't matter. Wink. Wink.

I remember the BOD being involved in some other really, really important matter at that time.
Something really, really important.
What was that?

March 14, 2015 - USHPA BOD votes to expel BobK for talking and asking questions.
March 28, 2015 - Kelly Harrison, a certified USHPA instructor with big advertising on his wing, offers group rates for joyrides and a little kid dies.

This really does show me USHPA's priorities.
First, address stuff that irritates the BOD.
Second, ignore the things that threaten the future of hang gliding.

- Form a national hang gliding association to protect the future of hang gliding -

[dhmartens]

Sign right here, Mark:
http://www.legacy.com/guestbooks/daily-times/arys-thoring-moorehead-condolences/174529307
"On behalf of the USHPA, we would like you to know that circumstances don't matter."


As we all know, Kelly Harrison was an outlaw, no longer a member of USHPA.
He advertised joyrides and made a living doing it.
Probably hundreds of USHPA members knew he was doing it.
How about it, Desert Skywalkers?
But since he was hang gliding, circumstances don't matter, I am told.

- Form a recreational hang gliding association where circumstances matter -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_horns
Ronnie James Dio was known for popularizing the sign of the horns in heavy metal.[8][9] He claimed his Italian grandmother used it to ward off the evil eye (which is known in Southern Italy as malocchio). Dio began using the sign soon after joining the metal band Black Sabbath in 1979. The previous singer in the band, Ozzy Osbourne, was rather well known at using the "peace" sign at concerts, raising the index and middle finger in the form of a V. Dio, in an attempt to connect with the fans, wanted to similarly use a hand gesture. However, not wanting to copy Osbourne, he chose to use the sign his grandmother always made.[10] The horns became famous in metal concerts very soon after Black Sabbath's first tour with Dio. The sign would later be appropriated by heavy metal fans under the name "maloik", a corruption of the original malocchio

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6852171/ns/wo ... rv3p_krKM8
President Bush’s “Hook ’em, ’horns” salute got lost in translation in Norway, where shocked people interpreted his hand gesture during his inauguration as a salute to Satan.



maybe we shouldn't conjure satan before a launch
https://zalbarath666.wordpress.com/sata ... nvocation/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Longhorn
Texas Longhorns with elite genetics can often fetch $40,000 or more at auction with the record of $170,000 in recent history for a cow.

This cow brought prosperity to early America.

[Rick Masters]

maybe we shouldn't conjure satan before a launch

Good thing PDMC daredevils aren't superstitious.    

January 31, 2014

R.I.P.

[wingspan33]

Not sure where this thread was headed, but, . . .

I know of at least one serious local pilot who quit flying (and presumably the USHGA) over the, then new, requirement to sign the waiver as part of membership renewal. I was puzzled by this. Why not sign the Waiver?

In thinking about this "Irresponsibility" thread this old question popped back into my head. What were possible objections to the waiver?

One might be that - "I wouldn't sue a fellow pilot EVER. So why does the USHGA need me to sign a waiver saying I won't?"

There's a certain disrespect going on with having to sign a waiver saying you won't do something you'd never think of doing anyway.

Another might be - "If some other idiot(?) HG pilot causes a midair involving me and I'm hurt, I should have every right to sue that negligent jerk!"

This strikes closer to the point of this thread in that the other "idiot HG pilot" was irresponsible and caused another pilot physical injury. The waiver can't change that, but since the injured pilot signed it, legal action is seemingly disallowed. That makes irresponsible/negligent flying a kind of "non issue". But in reality bad piloting IS an important issue!

The same would be true with bad or incompetent instruction. The waiver makes negligence during HG/PG instruction (which should be seen as a very serious occupation) seem as if it is somehow okay. It seems to be something that the USHPA sees as "par for the course" - or why have the waiver? I think this is were Bob's initial post hits the nail on the head. The USHPA is condoning an atmosphere of (at least potential/predictable) irresponsibility.

They're doing so using doublespeak. USHPA: "Pilots need to be responsible for their own actions. That's why the waiver is required. It declares that you, a USHPA member take responsibility for your own actions."

So, it seems, that in signing the waiver you also agree that other USHPA members (or the Association itself?) can not be identified as "irresponsible" or "negligent" in their actions as connected with you.

Hmmmmmmm, . . .

Does doublespeak hold water when push comes to shove? Are USHPA members defining themselves as "responsible" for any (flight related) action they may take when they sign the waiver? Is this some kind of "no-fault" liability situation? Or is the USHPA's waiver attempting to make irresponsible/negligent members legally invisible?

New term: Irresponsibility Ghost? I.e., "Hey I don't see any irresponsible pilots around here. Hey, . . . I think this accident was caused by an irresponsibility ghost!

When push comes to shove the USHPA's membership waiver IS meant to protect the irresponsible and/or negligent USHPA member (and themselves) from legal liability.

I wonder how would it read if it was actually meant to protect the responsible, skilled pilot member?

[Bob Kuczewski]

Thanks for bringing us back on topic Scott!!

Thanks also for picking up on what I was trying to say. I probably could have said it more clearly.

As I mentioned to Joe in the topic about waivers, our sport has gotten so afraid of litigation, that we've allowed people to get away with things that they shouldn't. USHPA's "you-can't-even-testify-in-a-law-suit-or-we'll-kick-you-out" policy promotes irresponsible behavior by both pilots and instructors. It sends a signal that USHPA will provide cover for bad behavior.

Of course no one wants to be on the receiving end of a law suit. But that SHOULD be encouragement to act responsibly. By pushing for waivers that pilots can't sue pilots, USHPA has turned the skies into a "free fire zone" where safe and careful pilots have no recourse when injured by reckless and irresponsible pilots. Does that make the sport more safe or less safe? Does it make us more insurable or less insurable? I guess we all know the answer to that one.