Honda Elite 250

[Bill Cummings]

Hey Sam, Over time I have found out that splicing Poly-Pro rope with a fid can yield a stronger splice if I added another two steps to the procedure.

Many times a later line break would show up exactly at one end or the other of the splice. This particularly would manifest itself if a fid was not used and melted rope ends were used.

Cutting off each melted end being spliced would make for a stronger splice.

Simply cutting off the melted ends would still have the line breaking right at the spliced rope ends but not as frequently.

The strongest splice would be when I would detach the fid from the rope end and unweave the end of the rope strands. Next with scissors, taper the unwoven ends then pull the ends back inside the outer line. (The tapering would be as much as three inches long. My overall, end to end, splice length would be just short of two feet long.)

When I would run my fingers over the outside of the splice it would be hard to tell exactly where the inner rope end was due to the tapering. This would just about totally end the rope failing near either end of the splice.
(I COULD BE PREACHING TO THE CHOIR TOO.)

[SamKellner]

Bill,
I can see where your technique would reduce/eliminate the breaks at the splice ends.
Great timing with this post We just got back to the house from our first scootertow field trials.

In our previous operator trials/training, when we were pulling the scooter 3/16" poly against the payout winch, we had almost eliminated line breaks.
This exercise was very helpful, IMO. Not sure if others use this technique. With the payout winch spool 50' right in front of the scooter operator, it's easy to see the spool start to turn and gain momentum. Not exactly the same in the field.

Today I made Terry a tow bridle out of spectra, loops in both ends, with the fid.
Then put a loop in the end of the 3/16" poly tow line, with a fid.
We didn't coordinate well on the first two surface launch(no cart yet) attempts and had line breaks, spliced with a fid.
Two other places in the poly looked like some of the strands had been snagged, so I spliced them with the fid.

The third launch attempt went like clockwork. Terry came right off the ground, FL.
The line performed with no problems.
The scooter runs perfect, too.
We have some spectra and will probably put it on the scooter soon. The spectra will surely be more durable.
I like the small poly but it seems to catch on weeds/vegitation? and snag the strands.

AND THE SIDEWALLS DIDN'T FALL OFF THE WHEEL

Note: The name was changed from "John" to "Mike" in the earlier post at Sam's request (originally at top of this post):

BobK, need help Please edit my last post I ment Mike . Not John. Duuuuhhhhhhhh
Mike, please excuse my brain fart.
More on the small poly

[Bill Cummings]

“Sam, --
With the payout winch spool 50' right in front of the scooter operator, it's easy to see the spool start to turn and gain momentum. Not exactly the same in the field.”

Would you elaborate on your quote above? I’m not yet on the same page with you. Were you pulling the rope off of the payout winch/reel with the scooter against the payout winch’s brake?

Concerning your quote below--
“Sam, --
I like the small poly but it seems to catch on weeds/vegetation? and snag the strands.”

This, Sam, is exactly the situation when static towing with Poly that I didn’t want my driver to rely on a line tension gauge in the tow vehicle to adjust my line tension while I was being towed.

I would tell my drivers to give me what I asked for, with constant transmit on the radio, and to disregard the pressure gauge as the final word. (rather - pilot in command.)

For students that didn’t know what tension was needed this would not be the case.

For an experienced pilot, or I should say, as an experienced pilot I liked changes in my static tow to come from me over the radio and not from a decision by the tow driver.

A driver relying on a pressure gauge that is being drug through the vegetation roots, gravel and thickets, lightly/abruptly snagging here and there.

I’m not a total fan of the constant tension rule since I might be pulled through the control frame after a mild lock out and at that moment I wouldn’t want the tension back to normal. This is just a preference of mine and not to shove it down the throat of a student as the way to go. (Yet.) ---- What are your thoughts?

The snagging Poly-Pro is where I jumped from scooter to static and pressure gauges. I am not trying to derail this scooter tow thread. Hopefully no one else is as easily distracted as I am.

Okay now back to ---what was it? -----Scooter Tow----focus everyone.

[SamKellner]

Bill,

Yes, we have been pulling against the payout brake. First we wind up the scooter line over the payout line, with the rewind motor. It verifies the payout is working smooth, also.
We started this when we had the 250 Ninja on the trailer. With clutch and gears, it seemed a safe way to practice. Use second gear, set the throttle to 5K, eeeease out the clutch. and start the payout spool with the pressure set to about what I use for platform launches. Over and Over.

I really found that just as easy as the Honda Elite. I can see where the Honda will be more user friendly. So we trashed the Ninja .

We have been doing about the same thing with the Honda and trying to avoid backlash situations.

What you say about your pressure adjustments.....that's how we are approaching our towing ops., "pilot in command"

Good to hear someone with your experience say that.

Seems all the recent focus on "operator in control" is so that it makes more acceptable for a first day student to fly. More so for PG student mills, IMO.

[Bill Cummings]

Sam,
Very good idea testing the scooter and payout winch together. I never thought of that.

If I would have been in po$$e$$ion of two tow $ystems $imultaneou$ly it might have occurred to me.

With my payout winch/reel, in the boat or on the trailer, the belt to the starter rewind would have enough resistance when we would free wheel the winch to avoid back-lashing the towline around the drum. (So really I did not have the ability to totally free wheel)

The Honda Elite 250 ---I can see where coming off of the throttle to an automatic clutch could give you enough free wheel-os-city (new word ) to allow a backlash.
I’m guessing the foot brake to the rear wheel is how you must be controlling that.
I’m wondering too if “dynamiting” the brake could also pose a problem. (Pesky inertia.)

Do you use a line drogue chute?

I collected up some used (dyneema line (sp?) to make a two to one Skyting bridle for static towing behind the car. What I don’t know yet (depending on who is being towed up) is --what is the maximum strength weak-link I can use with that bridle arrangement and still not have any snap back on a link break or break the bridle. Any suggestions on this?

I have never used weak-link stronger than 1.6 G for myself (350 lbs) or lighter than 160 for hydraulic take-up stationary winch. Payout winches with too much line on the drum is where I worked my way up to 350 lbs for a weak link. I consider 350 lbs for me to be a strong weak-link and my upper limit. (Tad may disagree with me.)

[SamKellner]

Bill,

It might depend where your weak link is placed. What you said sounds about right. We surely do not use greenspot for scooter or payout.

I stomped the brake several times in an attempt to avoid/minimize a backlash. No problem.

I'm wondering if other scooter rigs have the brake set to a very minimal drag to help prevent free wheeling.

We have a 5ft round, pull thru, chute. We're hoping that will work but haven't tried it yet. I read that other tow groups use a 5ft, but not sure if a bit smaller might work just as good.

Also, I'm wondering how far in front of the pilot should the chute be located.

And, what size line is good from the chute to the pilot. One scooter operator I saw around here had a 1/2" heavy rope. His theory was that it would weight the chute down upon glider release, so the glider would not fly into the chute. ????? However, even with weighted section, I saw a new Freedom hit the chute. Luckily it did not tangle.

That's another question I have: using a drogue, what is the correct scooter operator action upon release.

Thanks for your help.
Sam

[MikeLake]

The problem with the line chutes we used here a couple a seasons ago was they didn't work half the time.
If they got wet they fell like a stone and if they were dry they fell like a stone because they were always tangled up.

I can't remember if I was asked or if I volunteered but I am now somehow chief chute maker in our club. I was asked to produce some chutes that worked 100%, didn't mind getting wet, didn't tangle and were cheap and easy to make.

After a couple of prototypes what I finished up with was a 1 mtr square of 'proper' waterproof chute material with webbing at the 4 corners.
There is a bit of tow rope running up the middle through eyelets at the apex and the webbing. Appropriately placed knots pulled the chute closed when under load.

These work ok. They open instantly and are unaffected by the wet because of the lightweight material used.
The rope up the middle serves 2 purposes.
The first is to take the tow load, so none goes through the chute itself, and also to allow the chute to rotate around this rope so it doesn't tangle.
This, and by using webbing instead of cord for the chute lines, seems to have solved the tangle problem.

They still oscillate and spin a bit but this didn’t seem to matter too much.

Although these were quite cheap material wise I was disappointed in the time they took make as the design included air-slots, eyelets, rope splicing and far too much sewing and reinforcing.

By accident, when using another prototype, I found that a chute with a split down one side made all the air slots around the apex redundant and also made them resistant to spinning.
I soon concluded that if they didn’t spin I could dispense with the central rope altogether, but needed something to take the tow loads

So now we have a square of cloth with a single reinforced air-slot down one side, webbing to 3 of the 4 corners and webbing to the other corner, running right up to the apex to take the load.
I think this is just about as simple as you can get and they work fine.

Regards Mike

[SamKellner]

Thanks Mike,

That's great info. on chutes. It does sound time intensive. Glad the most recent design is working out.

Hopefully the guys in your club appreciate your efforts.

About how far from the pilot do you locate the chute?

Thanks again ,
Sam

[MikeLake]

The old chutes were made of heavy canvas and didn’t open until they had dropped away (not what is wanted to avoid drum rewind problems.)
These had a leader that positioned the chute about 8’ from the pilot.

The new chutes, while solving one problem, created another (such is towing!) in that they open the instant the line goes slack.
This created a real danger of flying into the chute, an unacceptable risk, so the leader length was increased to 12’.

Not 100% happy with this so I plan to make this leader out of something very thin and light (instead of using a bit of tow rope) and upping the distance to at least 20 feet.

Regards

[MikeLake]

First prototype.